It’s a comforting stance, really. None, and I mean none, of the religious franchises are remotely believable, much less acceptable, to me. I can’t fathom how or why people would want to believe in them but hey, that’s their business and none of mine. However I strongly doubt–disbelieve–that any possible deity, any conscious overarching will, benign or indifferent, would bear the trappings of the many corporate versions past or present.
Nothing could ever convince me that divinity has ever played the slightest part in any religion. Religions are corporations, designed to justify and perpetuate themselves. Some of ‘em fulfill useful social functions but “divine authority”, much less insight? Not a fuckin’ chance.
Nothing would convince me of any of the gods normally believed in; the claims about them are illogical, irrational, and contradict reality as we know it. One of the defining features of religious beliefs is their stupidity, their implausibility. I’d sooner believe I’d been slipped a drug or was in the Matrix.
As for nonstandard versions of gods, you really would have to define what qualifies as a god. If an immensely powerful alien showed up and claimed to be the creator of this universe, having evolved in a different one, and demonstrated the knowledge and power to be expected from such a creature, I’d at least provisionally take it’s word for it. But I wouldn’t call it a god, just a really powerful alien. And I certainly wouldn’t worship it.
I’m agnostic about God and really about anything I haven’t personally experienced. I’m somewhat open minded about the idea of some kind of universal mind (it seems the universe is made of math, and in an infinite multiverse it seems likely to me that some sort of math based consciousness might arise). But I’m very skeptical about any of the various religion-myths bandied about by dogmatic organized religions. But in either case I have to concede that I don’t strictly know.
I don’t think anything could change my agnosticism, because to me it’s the only honest and logical viewpoint. My experiences could change - a seemingly omnipotent being could appear before me. But I could only honestly say I was sure about what I had actually experienced (what were my perceptions) and not make any claims about what such an experience would imply (the nature of the perceived thing). The only exception would be if I found some proof based on logic - I acknowledge that some things can be proven logically rather than experientially (although I personally have experienced some illogical things lol).
That said, I don’t see how this whole “faith” thing got started. There’s plenty of examples in the bible of important religious folks who would not believe or obey God until they were shown some kind of miraculous thing as proof or put through a burdensome trial.
Human knowledge over time drastically decreased the places the believers could claim gods were at and the things they could claim that gods were responsible for, while the advent of recording and analytical devices & techniques made accepting word of mouth no longer a necessity. They CAN’T make the kinds of claims they used to without being caught, or claim proofs that will be contradicted by recordings and studies they don’t control without being humiliated. So, they carefully make a virtue of believing without evidence, because that’s all that’s left to them. If they make real claims, they’ll be proved wrong.
I posted this in a similar thread a few months back:
If the following happened:
(1) A being appeared out of thin air in the middle of some live televised public event. Appearing halfway between home base and the pitcher’s mound in the middle of a world series game would be a good way to do it
(2) This being displayed supernatural powers (many possibilities discussed already upthread)
(3) This being was incredibly charismatic. People were drawn to this being, and reported great happiness at being around this being. Everyone liked it. It was funny and kind and caring. But people who had been exposed to this being did not (at least apparently) become mind-controlled robots… debate would still rage, even among those who had been directly exposed to this being’s Apparent Radiant Goodness as to the exact nature of this being
(4) After hearing many people I trusted claim that praying to this being would result in prayers being answered, I prayed to this being, and was answered. That is, I assumed a “prayer-ish” mindset, and then felt that I was communicating with another being… and clear two-way communicating took place. I kind of envision the being as being like some kind of super-therapist… not removing free will by telling me what to do at every moment, and in fact refusing to do so, but rephrasing situations and pointing things out that clarified my own thoughts on the topic, and how I could use my own capabilities and tendencies (which the being knew better than I) to solve these issues
(5) When asked who the being was and why it had only now appeared, it claimed to be God, and showed people (via magic) the creation of the universe, and explained why it had only now appeared.
(6) (here’s the key point) All of the above MADE THE WORLD AND MY LIFE BETTER. The advice that this being gave caused the people of the world to love one another at least somewhat more. The influence of this being was clearly benevolent… and I don’t mean into some kind of theocratic god-worshiping world of clones who do nothing but sing hymns morning and night. I mean, the world was actually better… people were happier, crime was down, disease was down, etc. More people were good and fewer people were evil and there was more happiness and more productive fulfillment of the potential for human greatness.
Basically, I want Aslan to come back
If all of the above happened and continued for long enough that I was certain I wasn’t dreaming, I see no reason why it would be more logical to define that being as either hallucination or super-advanced-alien than “God”.
I’m curious about the discussion of what may and may not constitute a G/god. If an entity appeared and did some of what is suggested, isn’t it sufficient to conclude that it is awesomely powerful, and if it wished to be “worshipped,” I probably would?
If someone showed up and claimed to be the God of the Bible, and started performing “miracles,” I’d think Him a dick based on his resume, but I’d be sufficiently intimidated that I’d probably do most anything He asked me to do. Well, short of killing my kids and stuff. If He wants to be that big of a jerk, He’d have to do that himself.
I know very few atheists who stopped believing because of this. Since religion is set up to offer solace for disasters (God has a plan) quite the opposite.
As an atheist, I would start believing in some God if there was verifiable and repeatable evidence for one. Dreams and visions definitely do not count.
The thing that got me to not believe in God was not any tragedy, or even a bad experience with religion. I rather enjoyed my religious training, in fact. It was the discovery of where the Bible came from. Once I stopped assuming that it was true in its recounting of history, and compared the stories to what could be verified, belief dwindled rather quickly. Everything I’ve seen in the past 30 years has strengthened my lack of belief. Nothing I have seen gives me any reason to believe in gods other than the Western variety either.
[QUOTE=Kalhoun]
Are you saying you use the god concept as the answer for the things you don’t have a scientific answer for?
I’m saying there are a lot of questions for which humanity has not yet found a complete answer – some scientific and some philosophical. Perhaps someday answers will be found for everything. Personally, I believe (there’s that word again) that there will always be things we can’t discover an answer for, but for which there has to be some answer beyond “because that’s the way it is.”
I believe in theism. That there is such a compelling need for something greater that every developed civilisation created something that filled that…gap…that there is something fundamental to the human condition that needs something to believe in. Something greater.
I see the Hubble Telescope peer farther and farther unto the past and have a hard time reconciling the Scope of what is, that it’s a ‘gift to us from God’. That I can’t wrap my head around.
I do NOT believe that there is One True Religion. A God of love would not permit the condemnation to hell or purgatory - every being that did not hear his word.
I believe the total sum of the Human Spirit, worldwide, is an emergent system that permits theology. It’s not Wiccan, but it’s not Buddhist, nor Islam, or Jewish. In being none of them, it is all of them. But it’s not pantheism.
I think many MANY horrible things have been done by man in the name of God. Wrongly.
I grew up in a Protestant family, attended Catholic schools, and was very much a part of organized religion for many many years. I hear the Born Again, or God Rock, or a formal service and just feel…bored. All the questions have a trite answer, and all of the ceremony as gotten boring with repetition.
I’m confident nothing, short of my brain somehow being rewired to make me susceptible to the weakest of suggestions, can cause me to believe gods exist.
That 21st century first-worlders, who seem otherwise to be completely rational and outwardly functional, believe in deities absolutely amazes me.
I don’t know any atheist for whom this applies.
In my case, at least, I don’t believe in gods for the same reason I don’t believe in the Easter bunny, or that my chicken sandwich will stand up on its plate and tell me a joke.
There is nothing, barring a personally directed ‘miracle’( Wallpaper made of £50 notes that I could peel off, would be a nice start!) that would convince me of there being a god as depicted by any of the so-called ‘holy books’! The nearest I can come to accepting a god is if we simply define it as THE Great Initiator. Then, in the same way we all contain the atoms of stars in our physical make-up, we all still retain a part of that god within us. But, this doesn’t mean I need to follow the rules of organised religions, that man has made up to explain why we are here to ask these questions.
Actually I’ve changed my mind. If a putative God showed up and asked me what he could do to prove himself I’d tell him to KILL ALL THE MOSQUITOES, MOTHERFUCKER - without upsetting the harmony of the ecosystem or harming one other creature - then we’d talk.
All god would have to do is make a big deal showing he exists. Then atheists would jump on the bandwagon. The fact he has not ,shows he does not exist. It would be such a simple thing for him to do.
I’m not sure we can’t EVER discover the answer to some things; I believe “because that’s the way it is” is as inadequate as saying “god did it.” I think the proper response is “We don’t know…but we’re working on it.”
