# Could astrology be scientifically tested? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 26, 2003, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-astrology-be-scientifically-tested/184439 "2003-06-26T03:06:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-astrology-be-scientifically-tested/184439/41 "2003-06-28T00:12:45Z")
> [@](#): > > Mainly because they are not willing to learn about the subject from professionals. Can we see some evidence of this? I know of many skeptics who have studied the books written by experts in astrology. > [@](#): > > Unfortunately he predicted his own death and died on the day he predicted of a heart attack. And this would of course be documented somewhere? I mean, there would be an independent record of the prediction published in a predated journal or similar. And the death certificate is public record. So this would be easily verifiable. Or is this yet another astrology story that seems to be based entirely on anecdote? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-astrology-be-scientifically-tested/184439/42 "2003-06-28T00:47:55Z")
A business man flew to India to conclude some contracts. He went to the local Guru and announced: “I will be here for a couple of weeks, in that time I want you to teach me enlightenment.” The Guru simply said “OK, come back when you can.” When the business man returned the Guru asked him to lie down on the ground. The Guru then staked the businessman to the ground spreadeagle, built a fire, put a piece of leather over the belly of the staked out business man, then dropped a few of the red hot embers on the leather. The business man yelled and twisted and bumped and squirmed until he had thrown all the embers off. Outraged he demanded to know why the Guru had treated him so. The Guru replied “when you want enlightenment as much as you wanted those embers off your belly, come back.” When you really want to know about spiritual things, you will learn. And not a moment sooner. Love Leroy ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-astrology-be-scientifically-tested/184439/43 "2003-06-28T00:54:51Z")
Another businesman flew to India and said to the guru “Y’know, you can keep your alleged enlightenment, I prefer my version that involves science and engineering and actual light bulbs. So, where do you want me to install the electric heater? It’ll do a better, cleaner, safer job of heating this place than that ember-producing fire of yours.” ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-astrology-be-scientifically-tested/184439/44 "2003-06-28T03:34:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bnorton \* > **My wife once dragged me to some kind of women’s empowering convention which oddly enough was crawling with astrologers, numerologists, aroma-therapists, etc. (Go figure.)** It’s unfortunate, but the percentage of women that are susceptible to pseudoscientific claims seems to be higher than the percentage of men that are susceptible to pseudoscientific claims. I wonder, why is that? ---
**Author:** ![El\_Zagna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d2c977/32.png) [@El\_Zagna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Zagna)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-astrology-be-scientifically-tested/184439/45 "2003-06-28T03:56:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kimstu \* > \*\*Well well well, I just got done teaching a course on “History of Astrology and History of Science” which ended with an examination of twentieth-century attempts to “validate” astrology scientifically, and within a month, up pops a GD thread on this very subject! Boy, am I prepared to make a contribution here! \*\* Wow, what perfect timing. Coincidence you say. Ha! I think not! Have you looked at the stars lately??? 😉 \*\* > [@](#): > > I would just point you to Jan Willem Nienhuys’s excellent [recapitulation](http://www.skepsis.nl/mars.html) of the Gauquelin experiments and their aftermath. \*\* Any chance you could give us a recapitulation of his recapitulation. Nienhuys’s writing style makes my eyes bleed. \*\* > [@](#): > > I think it would be very difficult to come up with any scientific test of astrology that would really provide clear, convincing results about astrology _as a whole_. \*\* Agreed, at least as a practical matter. (Given unlimited resources and an army of obsessed researchers, you could follow up on every claim and side claim they could come up with.) But you can still test for specific claims. In the research I’ve been doing the last couple of days, the study by Shawn Carlson ([link](http://psychicinvestigator.com/demo/AstroSkc.htm), [link](http://www.imsc.res.in/~jayaram/Articles/astro/astro.html) ) and published in _Nature_ in 1985 seems to be considered as a pretty definitive blow to astrology. Did you include that study in your course? Can you point me to any other well done studies? ---
**Author:** ![El\_Zagna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d2c977/32.png) [@El\_Zagna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Zagna)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-astrology-be-scientifically-tested/184439/46 "2003-06-28T04:11:35Z")
Now that I think about it I should change my qualified agreement with **Kimstu** to full blown agreement. Astrology _as a whole_ is just too squishy a thing to nail down. There are as many flavors of astrology as there are astrologers, and they’re always changing the rules. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-astrology-be-scientifically-tested/184439/47 "2003-06-28T05:52:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tracer \* > \*\*It’s unfortunate, but the percentage of women that are susceptible to pseudoscientific claims seems to be higher than the percentage of men that are susceptible to pseudoscientific claims. > > I wonder, why is that? \*\* Women believe in their intuitive skills more than men. They are generally more compassionate and understanding. Less quick to judge the worth of someone by their beliefs, and, best of all, they are far more opened minded than men. ---
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-astrology-be-scientifically-tested/184439/48 "2003-06-28T14:10:41Z")
Actually, there IS a slight correlation between star signs and personalities. The reason is, people who believe in astrology will start to act in a manner consistent with their star sign so that astrological predictions become a sort of self-fulfilling prophesy. This is referring to generalised qualities of star signs BTW, not weekly predictions. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-astrology-be-scientifically-tested/184439/49 "2003-06-28T15:16:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lekatt \* > \*\*Women believe in their intuitive skills more than men. They are generally more compassionate and understanding. Less quick to judge the worth of someone by their beliefs, and, best of all, they are far more opened minded than men. \*\* Assuming the premise was true (that women are more susceptible to pseudoscience), one could just as easily blame disparities in the western education system, i.e. a tendency to discourage girls from critical thinking. Personally, I’m inclined to think women are _less_ susceptible and more likely to embrace hard-headed practicality, since this offers the evolutionary advantage of helping their children survive. The _men_ can run off and waste time worshipping idols, but if the women don’t take care of the mundane housework and child rearing, it ain’t gettin’ done. ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2003, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-astrology-be-scientifically-tested/184439/50 "2003-06-28T21:22:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bnorton \* > \*\*You don’t need to understand the mechanism behind a phenomenon for it to be true. Gravity existed long before we had any understanding of how it worked. \*\* I’ll grant you this, but before I’m ready to equate correlation with causation, in the absence of some plausible mechanism, the correlation has to be _damned_ good! Every time I let go of the rock, it drops. Clearly something going on there. One-hundred percent correlation (except for those pesky birds - what’s up with them?!). With astrology, on the other hand, its proponents are hard-pressed to come up with even a weak correlation. Couple that with the absence of a mechanism, and you’ve got a problem. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2003, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-astrology-be-scientifically-tested/184439/51 "2003-06-29T17:51:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bryan Ekers \* > \*\*Assuming the premise was true (that women are more susceptible to pseudoscience), one could just as easily blame disparities in the western education system, i.e. a tendency to discourage girls from critical thinking. > > Personally, I’m inclined to think women are _less_ susceptible and more likely to embrace hard-headed practicality, since this offers the evolutionary advantage of helping their children survive. The _men_ can run off and waste time worshipping idols, but if the women don’t take care of the mundane housework and child rearing, it ain’t gettin’ done. \*\* Women are nurturers, they grow and raise babies. They are more sensitive to emotions, and emotions are the path to spirituality. As least that’s what I believe. Basically we believe in what we are taught, which is not necessarily the truth. Your religion, or lack of it, is determined by the country you are born in and/or your parents. US public schools have been purged of all religion and are now turning out atheists by the hundreds, even 40 years ago this was not the case. Truth and reality lie on a higher plane than the culturation process of any society. In order to reach them one must climb the latter of all knowledge. Love Leroy ---
**Author:** ![El\_Zagna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d2c977/32.png) [@El\_Zagna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Zagna)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2003, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-astrology-be-scientifically-tested/184439/52 "2003-06-29T18:45:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lekatt \* > **US public schools have been purged of all religion and are now turning out atheists by the hundreds, even 40 years ago this was not the case.** For the record, my dad and mom are 91 and 87 respectively. They went to high school in Calvert, Texas just northwest of Bryan-College Station, home of Texas A&M, and Marlin, Texas, just southeast of Waco, home of Baylor University and all things Baptist. In other words they were raised in very conservative territory. Neither one remembers ever having any kind of formal daily prayer or having to say the pledge of allegiance for that matter (while they may be old they are not forgetful), but that generation managed to turn out pretty well, and not many athiests in the bunch. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2003, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-astrology-be-scientifically-tested/184439/53 "2003-06-29T18:56:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by madkins007 \* > \*\*I KNOW the Skeptical Inquirer studied astrology on more than one occasion, in several ways. They DID notice a minor tendency for famous warriors to be Aries, but beyond that… predictably, nothing. \*\* Isaac Asimov wrote a guest column for PENTHOUSE in the early 80s (sorry, no online cite) where he mentioned an experiment where the records of a sampling of army volunteers (this was some years after the draft was ended) were examined and exactly as many were born under Venus as under Mars. No mention about how one subgroup performed vs. the other subgroup or if economic necessity made them join, but basically as a determinant for one’s personality and interests goes, a likelihood for joining the armed forces _at all_ is pretty fundamental, I’d think. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2003, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-astrology-be-scientifically-tested/184439/54 "2003-06-29T23:16:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bnorton \* > \*\*For the record, my dad and mom are 91 and 87 respectively. They went to high school in Calvert, Texas just northwest of Bryan-College Station, home of Texas A&M, and Marlin, Texas, just southeast of Waco, home of Baylor University and all things Baptist. In other words they were raised in very conservative territory. Neither one remembers ever having any kind of formal daily prayer or having to say the pledge of allegiance for that matter (while they may be old they are not forgetful), but that generation managed to turn out pretty well, and not many athiests in the bunch. \*\* I live in Oklahoma, not to far from Waco. In our school, we saluted the flag every morning and had an opening prayer, usually very short. We also pledged allegience to the flag at assemblies and nearly always said a short prayer. I can understand there would be differences in the school administrators beliefs and programs. I know that all the other schools in my city pledged and prayed. I don’t believe just the lack of these things cause atheists. Evolution is now taught as reality instead of theory, and many other teachings directed at making spiritualism look like superstitution are also taught. As the children grow older and start learning on their own they will discover the difference between reality and theory. At least most of them, and they will not be happy they have been mislead. Love Leroy ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-astrology-be-scientifically-tested/184439/55 "2003-06-30T06:38:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lekatt \* > **US public schools have been purged of all religion and are now turning out atheists by the hundreds, even 40 years ago this was not the case.** Hundreds out of the millions that go through the US school system every year is not very many. Nevertheless I would bet that the % of admitted atheists in the US is smaller now than it was 40 years ago (1960s). And I might remind you that it was the founding farthers’ wishes that enshrined the separation of church and state in your constitution. Remember that when your soldiers are fighting theocracies elsewhere in the world. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Zagna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d2c977/32.png) [@El\_Zagna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Zagna)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-astrology-be-scientifically-tested/184439/56 "2003-06-30T13:18:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lekatt \* > \*\*I live in Oklahoma, not to far from Waco. In our school, we saluted the flag every morning and had an opening prayer, usually very short. We also pledged allegience to the flag at assemblies and nearly always said a short prayer. \*\* When was this? Are you part of the same generation as my parents? > [@](#): > > **Evolution is now taught as reality instead of theory…** Evolution, like gravity, is both a fact and a theory. This has been discussed in dozens of threads on these boards. I find it odd, but not surprising, that someone who rejects evolution with all the evidence behind it, accepts astrology with absolutely no evidence behind it. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-astrology-be-scientifically-tested/184439/57 "2003-06-30T14:07:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bnorton \* > I find it odd, but not surprising, that someone who rejects evolution with all the evidence behind it, accepts astrology with absolutely no evidence behind it. Well, he’s been disillusioned ever since that high-school biology teacher strapped him down and sprinkled red-hot embers on his belly. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-astrology-be-scientifically-tested/184439/58 "2003-06-30T14:49:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lekatt \* > **When you really want to know about spiritual things, you will learn. And not a moment sooner.** There was a time in my life when I really really really wanted to learn astrology, OBEs, runes, tarotry, religion, magick, ouija, etc. In fact I was on a quest to learn these things for a good 20 years. And I truly believed in them the whole time. Really, I did. I had no doubt. I was one of the least critical thinkers you’d ever want to meet. Guess what conclusion I was eventually forced to draw? ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-astrology-be-scientifically-tested/184439/59 "2003-06-30T15:14:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bnorton \* > \*\*For the record, my dad and mom are 91 and 87 respectively. They went to high school in Calvert, Texas just northwest of Bryan-College Station, home of Texas A&M, and Marlin, Texas, just southeast of Waco, home of Baylor University and all things Baptist. In other words they were raised in very conservative territory. Neither one remembers ever having any kind of formal daily prayer or having to say the pledge of allegiance for that matter (while they may be old they are not forgetful), but that generation managed to turn out pretty well, and not many athiests in the bunch. \*\* My dad, who’s 85, went to a polytechnic public high school in Baltimore. He recalls with a chuckle how he and his fellow classmates (mostly Catholic) would start the day with their Jewish teacher reading some inspiring verse from the King James Version bible. The experience didn’t make him an Atheist, but the emptiness and absurdity of it wasn’t lost on anybody. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2003, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-astrology-be-scientifically-tested/184439/60 "2003-06-30T19:27:15Z")
**Krokodil:** Wouldn’t the emptiness and absurdity of it depend at least in part on _which Testament_ said inspiring verses were drawn from? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-astrology-be-scientifically-tested/184439.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-astrology-be-scientifically-tested/184439.md?page=4)