# Could Congress Kill The Judiciary? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [April 15, 2025, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-congress-kill-the-judiciary/1017074 "2025-04-15T16:09:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2025, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-congress-kill-the-judiciary/1017074/41 "2025-04-23T15:35:45Z")
Assuming for the sake of argument that nobody is going to do anything blatantly unconstitutional, ITSM that the Constitutional question of whether they can do that is sufficiently unclear that the courts would have to rule on it, which means that the answer would be “no”. But this seems like a potentially researchable question. Obviously the structure of the inferior Federal Courts has been changed many times over the years just to accommodate the growth of the nation; how was this handled previously WRT those judges already in office? ---
**Author:** ![Pazu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pazu/32/15522_2.png) [@Pazu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pazu)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2025, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-congress-kill-the-judiciary/1017074/42 "2025-04-25T15:25:34Z")
Looks like the Trump Admin isn’t going to wait for Congress to kill the judiciary, they’re just going ahead and arresting them: [Patel says FBI arrested Wisconsin judge, Trump immigration enforcement effort escalates](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/fbi-arrests-wisconsin-judge-for-alleged-immigration-arrest-obstruction/ar-AA1DCtyO?ocid=msedgntp&pc=U531&cvid=78c0d0c37a6a4bdfc3bebc8059f4ca3f&ei=6) ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2025, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-congress-kill-the-judiciary/1017074/43 "2025-04-25T15:40:27Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > The Constituiton gives Congress the right to “ordain and establish” “inferior courts.” This is where we need to start. With what the constitution says. > [@](#): > > The judicial Power of the United States, shall be vested in one supreme Court, and in such inferior Courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish. So it is indeed up to Congress to decide how many inferior courts exist. The only thing they can’t dissolve is the U.S. Supreme Court. They can also strip it of jurisdiction over most issues, except some narrow things spelled out in the document (e.g. involving ambassadors) > [@](#): > > In all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, and those in which a State shall be Party, the supreme Court shall have original Jurisdiction. In all the other Cases before mentioned, the supreme Court shall have appellate Jurisdiction, both as to Law and Fact, with such Exceptions, and under such Regulations as the Congress shall make. Meaning, the Congress could pass an immigration law and include in the law “this is not subject to appellate review” So, _can_ Congress kill the judiciary? Yes, yes they can. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2025, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-congress-kill-the-judiciary/1017074/44 "2025-04-25T16:21:20Z")
I came to post that story. Here’s the NYTimes (gift) link: > **[Wisconsin Judge Hannah Dugan Arrested, Accused of Shielding Immigrant From...](https://www.nytimes.com/2025/04/25/us/politics/fbi-arrest-judge.html?unlocked_article_code=1.CU8.tUHi.4_USweJ4rHkU&smid=url-share)** > > Judge Hannah Dugan was arrested on suspicion that she “intentionally misdirected federal agents away from” an immigrant being pursued by the authorities, the F.B.I. director said in a social media post that he later deleted. > F.B.I. Director Kash Patel said on Friday that agents had arrested a county judge in Milwaukee on charges of obstructing immigration enforcement. A spokesman for the U.S. Marshals confirmed the arrest of a sitting judge, a major escalation in the Trump administration’s battle with local authorities over deportations. > > The bureau arrested Judge Hannah Dugan on suspicion that she “intentionally misdirected federal agents away from” an immigrant being pursued by federal authorities, [Mr. Patel wrote](https://x.com/FBIDirectorKash/status/1915770607054041488) on social media. He later deleted the post for reasons that were not immediately clear. An F.B.I. spokesman did not immediately respond to a request for comment. > > Brady McCarron, a spokesman for the U.S. Marshals, confirmed that the judge had been arrested by F.B.I. agents on Friday morning. The charging document against the judge was not immediately available in federal court records. > … ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2025, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-congress-kill-the-judiciary/1017074/45 "2025-04-25T16:31:06Z")
Does a State have any sovereign immunity from the Feds? ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2025, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-congress-kill-the-judiciary/1017074/46 "2025-04-25T17:37:23Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > So it is indeed up to Congress to decide how many inferior courts exist. The only thing they can’t dissolve is the U.S. Supreme Court. > > They can also strip it of jurisdiction over most issues, except some narrow things spelled out in the document (e.g. involving ambassadors) OK. So, hyperliterally, Congress cannot disestablish inferior courts – they can only establish them. But, as you point out, also by a literalist interpretation, Congress can create conditions under which our long-established inferior courts have hardly anything to do. Right? I think – not right. There still exists at least a bit of a [living constitution AKA judicial pragmatism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Living_Constitution). Even Thomas and Alito are, to an extent, judicial pragmatists. For example, they wouldn’t allow the public to keep and bear arms when visiting their courtroom, despite there being no such carve-out in the 2nd amendment. Their excuse there is to grandfather in 18th (and 19th?) century gun controls. But they didn’t have a Supreme Court building until 1935. And the other justices are even more clearly judicial pragmatists. Trump says he has an Article II, Roberts, more quietly, thinks he has an Article III. And if Congress tried to eliminate any large portion of the federal judiciary AKA Article III, SCOTUS would IMHO examine the new law, find the closest-to-plausible way to strike it down and do that. . ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2025, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-congress-kill-the-judiciary/1017074/47 "2025-04-25T21:07:00Z")
Shouldn’t EVERY judge in the US be seriously alarmed by this? They should be collectively freaking the fuck out! This is astonishing! Even if they are big Trump supporters this should scare the shit out of them. Not to mention it is reducing their power substantially which most people jealously guard. And yet…it’s crickets. Also, does the FBI just arrest anyone the president says to arrest (even if via the DoJ)? WTF??? The American Gestapo (and I mean that, not Godwinizing it). ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2025, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-congress-kill-the-judiciary/1017074/48 "2025-04-25T21:19:33Z")
Did her actions with regard to that immigrant violate any laws? Did it constitute “interfering” with ICE? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2025, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-congress-kill-the-judiciary/1017074/49 "2025-04-25T21:33:06Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Did it constitute “interfering” with ICE? Seems to me judges constantly “interfere” with law enforcement. Nothing new there. Unless the judge was bribed/corrupt I can’t see how that can possibly stick. If she’s a shitty judge the proper route is to impeach her and remove her from her position (or vote her out if she is elected). If she is corrupt then bring corruption charges. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2025, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-congress-kill-the-judiciary/1017074/50 "2025-04-25T21:45:09Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Did her actions with regard to that immigrant violate any laws? Did it constitute “interfering” with ICE? More about her in my post in the deportation thread. > [@The Trump deportation news thread](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-trump-deportation-news-thread/1013404/577): > > More on Judge Hannah Dugan: > > [https://www.nytimes.com/2025/04/25/us/judge-hannah-dugan-wisconsin-immigration.html?unlocked\_article\_code=1.CU8.fJg2.MU4ulgq\_uPKG&smid=url-share](https://www.nytimes.com/2025/04/25/us/judge-hannah-dugan-wisconsin-immigration.html?unlocked_article_code=1.CU8.fJg2.MU4ulgq_uPKG&smid=url-share) > > > The [Wisconsin judge who was arrested](https://www.nytimes.com/2025/04/25/us/politics/fbi-arrest-judge.html) on Friday morning on charges of obstructing immigration enforcement **spent most of her legal career working on behalf of low-income people and marginalized groups.** > > My bold. > > Well, hell, that makes her suspect right off the bat! > > > Federal authorities arrested the judge, Hannah C. Dugan of the Milwaukee County Circuit Court, on suspicion that she “intentionally misdirected federal agents away from” an immigrant being pursued by federal authorities, [Kash Patel, the F.B.I. director, wrote](https://x.com/FBIDirectorKash/status/1915800907318468626) on social media. The authorities said that earlier this month, Judge Dugan directed an undocumented immigrant through a side door in her courtroom while the agents waited in a public hallway to apprehend him. > > WTG, Haannah! > > > Julius Kim, a criminal defense lawyer in Milwaukee who has known Judge Dugan for years, said on Friday that she is known for advocating on behalf of people who are “underrepresented in the justice system.” > > > > “Social justice issues are close to her heart,” he said. “But that being said, I don’t think she’s known by any stretch to be any kind of pushover in the courthouse, either. I think she takes her obligations seriously as a judge.” > > > > In 2021, Judge Dugan was a [finalist](https://issuu.com/shepherdexpress/docs/shxxxxxx-mgz_november2021_shepherd_publication_web) in the “Most Trusted Public Official” category in the Best of Milwaukee contest in The Shepherd Express, an alternative publication. > > Sounds like a dangerously uppity judge who needs to be stopped! “Social justice issues,” indeed! Harrumph! ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2025, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-congress-kill-the-judiciary/1017074/51 "2025-04-25T21:48:49Z")
I’m still wondering whether her actions were illegal. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2025, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-congress-kill-the-judiciary/1017074/52 "2025-04-25T21:49:51Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Did her actions with regard to that immigrant violate any laws? If she said he went this way when she knew he went that way then yes, lying to the police. BUT if (as I suspect) she didn’t say anything then its a BS obstruction charge of “not answering our questions” that cops arrest people for all of the time. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2025, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-congress-kill-the-judiciary/1017074/53 "2025-04-25T21:57:30Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Did her actions with regard to that immigrant violate any laws? Did it constitute “interfering” with ICE? Local and state law enforcement and court systems are independent from and have no obligation to comply with immigration law (which is federal by nature). The question is is that knowing that the defendant was being sought by ICE agents (who Judge Dugan directed to speak with the “chief judge” (presumably Judge Carl Ashley, Chief Judge of the First Judicial District of the County of Milwaukee) and then [escorting the defendant through the jury exit out of her courtroom](https://apnews.com/article/immigration-judge-arrested-7997186bbca5730e70a25f2347e631f6) (and from thence out of the courthouse), did she interfere with ICE agents in pursuit of their target? I think the answer is that yes, she did in fact interfere with those agents in execution of their duties. Had they been attempting to enter the courtroom, disrupting court activities then she might have an argument for taking action to protect the jurisdiction of the court and the ‘sanctity of proceedings’ but they were reported to be waiting out in the hallway for the defendant, which is entirely legal and often a way that defendants with outstanding warrants or offenses are apprehended, but she knowingly gave aid in helping the defendant (briefly) evade ICE agents. Arresting the judge for what was at most a petty misdemeanor was an obvious political move to test just how much they could get away with and obviously unnecessary since the judge’s place of work is well established (and she’s unlikely to go on the lam over such a trivial offense). The judge’s real ‘crime’ that warranted such action was an act of civil disobedience toward this ‘enhanced’ immigration enforcement, no doubt in part because of how it makes the job of local law enforcement and courts so much more difficult when the people involved don’t want to identify themselves to police or show up in court for fear of being deported. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2025, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-congress-kill-the-judiciary/1017074/54 "2025-04-25T22:11:26Z")
Never mind. I need to think on this some more. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2025, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-congress-kill-the-judiciary/1017074/55 "2025-04-25T22:44:09Z")
Thanks for that. The New York Times has a [PDF](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2025/04/25/us/judgedugancomplaint.html) of the charging document. The “offense description” part says. > 18 U.S.C. § 1505 Obstructing or impeding a proceeding before a department or agency of the United States > 18 U.S.C. § 1071 Concealing an individual to prevent his discovery and arrest ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2025, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-congress-kill-the-judiciary/1017074/56 "2025-04-25T23:20:22Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > I’m still wondering whether her actions were illegal. Hypothesis: Judges (like employers), all over the U.S., have recently been planning what to do if I.C.E. comes to their workplace. The goal is to give the minimum amount of cooperation without clearly violating the law. Perhaps Judge Dugan is in this category and was careful not to cross red lines. ---
**Author:** ![Tatterdemalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/43a26b/32.png) [@Tatterdemalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tatterdemalion)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2025, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-congress-kill-the-judiciary/1017074/57 "2025-04-25T23:24:10Z")
I very much hope that you are correct. I very much fear that in her desire to not co-operate with ICE she may have inadvertently crossed a line. If I were on the jury, I would vote to acquit, but I won’t be on the jury. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2025, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-congress-kill-the-judiciary/1017074/58 "2025-04-26T00:03:08Z")
I didn’t retain enough of the discussion to explain this properly, so my apologies if this doesn’t make enough sense, but I watched a legal commentator be interviewed on News Nation about the judge’s arrest, and he was pointing out that an ICE warrant isn’t issued by a judge and thus is somewhat more limited than a court-ordered warrant. He seemed to believe that this could affect the validity of ICE’s attempt to make the arrest in the courthouse and therefore diminish the judge’s alleged culpability. I have no idea if that’s a valid argument. In any case, given how Trump’s been demonizing judges who rule against him, it’s another step along the way to destroying judicial restraint of the worst of this maladministration’s abuses. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2025, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-congress-kill-the-judiciary/1017074/59 "2025-04-26T00:34:30Z")
> [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > He seemed to believe that this could affect the validity of ICE’s attempt to make the arrest in the courthouse and therefore diminish the judge’s alleged culpability. A courthouse is a public space; there is no expectation of privacy or sanctum, although if the agents had entered the judge’s courtroom during session she would have been entirely within her purview to have them removed. > [@EddyTeddyFreddy](#): > > In any case, given how Trump’s been demonizing judges who rule against him, it’s another step along the way to destroying judicial restraint of the worst of this maladministration’s abuses. This is the obvious intent of making such an issue of obstruction. If this had been a shopkeeper letting someone sneak out the back they wouldn’t have made an issue because who cares, but because it was a judge (and especially in a judiciary in which the regime has no authority) they’re making a big performance of arrest; shades of post-Weimar Germany. Next it will be medical personnel, and teachers, and librarians, and religious leaders who dare to aid immigrants, or protestors, or anyone who defies this regime. What the judge did was technically illegal, and was a legitimate act of Thoreauian civil disobedience. May she be an inspiration for others. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2025, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-congress-kill-the-judiciary/1017074/60 "2025-04-26T16:12:17Z")
I read (but not sure where in the firehose) that the door she directed him to leads to the same corridor where the ICE agents were, and that he bolted away and evaded them. Can anyone confirm this? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-congress-kill-the-judiciary/1017074.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-congress-kill-the-judiciary/1017074.md?page=4)