# Could do anything in Heaven?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-do-anything-in-heaven/113431
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [June 11, 2002, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-do-anything-in-heaven/113431 "2002-06-11T13:14:16Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Montezuma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Montezuma)
#### Post date: [June 11, 2002, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-do-anything-in-heaven/113431/1 "2002-06-11T13:14:16Z")
If we could do anything in Heaven could this be acting out your wildest fantasies in your own ‘Universe’ where you are master.
Would God let you act out wars, battles of some sort? Or would their be limits onto what you can act out on from your imagination?
I mean if it’s paradise theirs gotta be free will hasn’t there?
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### Author:  [@Chekmate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chekmate)
#### Post date: [June 11, 2002, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-do-anything-in-heaven/113431/2 "2002-06-11T16:52:44Z")
> [@](#):
>
> I mean if it’s paradise theirs gotta be free will hasn’t there?
Doubt it… Would you be able to sin? Reject God? Fornicate and Masturbate? Or would you just sit and bask in God’s glow for all eternity. I think that in heaven, free will wouldn’t be an option. Yet another reason I am an atheist…
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### Author:  [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)
#### Post date: [June 11, 2002, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-do-anything-in-heaven/113431/3 "2002-06-11T17:01:02Z")
Of course there would be free will. But you just wouldn’t WANT to sin. Very Aristotleian.
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### Author:  [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)
#### Post date: [June 11, 2002, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-do-anything-in-heaven/113431/4 "2002-06-11T17:13:10Z")
I have a feeling you wouldn’t be able act like the master of the universe, that being God’s job and all. The reason you want to act out these things while on earth is that your head is turned by things other than God’s will. Once you are in heaven and the perfect truth of God is revealed fully, you will have no need for any of that. You will have free will but it will be clear what the right path is and your will will be completely in tune with God’s.
So what Neurotik said.
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### Author:  [@il\_Topo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/il_Topo)
#### Post date: [June 11, 2002, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-do-anything-in-heaven/113431/5 "2002-06-11T18:40:28Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by gigi \*
> **The reason you want to act out these things while on earth is that your head is turned by things other than God’s will. Once you are in heaven and the perfect truth of God is revealed fully, you will have no need for any of that. You will have free will but it will be clear what the right path is and your will will be completely in tune with God’s.**
This statement implies that free will is not abrogated by having perfect knowledge of good, and the desire to always choose it. This highlights various problems, in my view, with the whole free will thing.
As I see it, there are two cases regarding free will:
Case #1: No free will exists in heaven. For example, God has no free will because being “all-good” binds him to choose good. (From my experience, this appears to be a minority position among religionists.)
If case #1 is true, then why what’s so great about free will that we have to have it? Indeed, it is really a detriment to have free will in such a case, as it makes us less like God.
Case #2: Free will can, and in fact does, exist in heaven. For example, God and the saints (or whatever) have free will, and always choose good because he/they have perfect knowledge of good, and a desire to choose it, and this does not contradict that they have free will to choose otherwise if they were so inclined.
Case #2 shows that free will is not abrogated in any way by an inclination to always choose good. Thus, free will does not, by itself, explain people’s choices of evil. That is, one can have free will, and never have the desire or inclination to choose evil. Then why do we not have such an inclination to always choose good? How can an all-good God give us an inclination to choose evil? Again, free will doesn’t cut it as an answer. It is this “something more” which explains evil choices, this “inclination”–why do we have it???
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### Author:  [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)
#### Post date: [June 11, 2002, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-do-anything-in-heaven/113431/6 "2002-06-11T18:49:42Z")
Well, as you point out, God has perfect knowledge of good. People do not. Indeed, it may be argued that people always act in a way in which they feel brings them closer to “the good,” but that end is not the proper end.
Of course, that “something more” may also be attributed to “the devil” or some power that wishes to tempt folks towards evil.
I dunno. Is there a theologist in the house?
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### Author:  [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)
#### Post date: [June 11, 2002, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-do-anything-in-heaven/113431/7 "2002-06-11T19:25:28Z")
**il Topo** ,
The problem I’ve got with your reasoning for Case #2 is that, if a person/being/god will by nature _always_ choose good, then there really is no choice being made. It’s silly to pretend like God could choose evil when you define God as a being who is always good.
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### Author:  [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)
#### Post date: [June 11, 2002, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-do-anything-in-heaven/113431/8 "2002-06-11T19:37:17Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Neurotik \*
> Of course there would be free will. But you just wouldn’t WANT to sin.
Sounds like a lobotomy patient to me.
Hmmm, maybe _that’s_ why St. Peter greets you at the Pearly Gates, he’s there to snip your lobes…
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### Author:  [@Allen\_Parine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Allen_Parine)
#### Post date: [June 11, 2002, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-do-anything-in-heaven/113431/9 "2002-06-11T20:38:07Z")
> [@](#):
>
> _Originally posted by il Topo_
> Case #1: No free will exists in heaven. For example, God has no free will because being “all-good” binds him to choose good. (From my experience, this appears to be a minority position among religionists.)
Can’t speak for the religionists, but it’s implicit in your example that there’s always exactly one best choice. Why couldn’t there be multiple courses of action tied for best from which an “all-good” deity could nondeterministically select? Also, your argument doesn’t apply to choices with no moral implications if such exist.
Regarding the OP, even if you restrict attention to a Christian idea of heaven there are probably as many answers as theologians. One idea I’ve encountered is that the good is the alignment of the human will with the divine will, with Jesus being the prototypical example of such alignment. [Vladimir Lossky](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0913836311/qid=1023827175/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/002-0116886-1478464) expresses this idea, and it seems to be fairly mainstream Orthodox thought. There’s still the question of whether, in heaven, one has to do _anything_ to achive union with God. Or whether, once beyond the event horizon of death, one simply moves effortlessly and inexorably toward the divine singularity.
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### Author:  [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)
#### Post date: [June 11, 2002, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-do-anything-in-heaven/113431/10 "2002-06-11T21:05:38Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by rjung \*
> \*\*
> Sounds like a lobotomy patient to me.
> \*\*
:rolleyes:
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### Author:  [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)
#### Post date: [June 11, 2002, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-do-anything-in-heaven/113431/11 "2002-06-11T21:06:29Z")
Well, you might want to recall the passage in the Gospel in which Sadducees (devout Jews who believed that there is no afterlife) hit Jesus with a riddle about a woman who’d been married to seven different brothers. Which of the men will be her husband in Heaven, the Sadducees asked Jesus.
Jesus answered, with exasperation, that in Heaven, humans will be like angels, and marriage as we know it won’t exist, because our existence in Heaven won’t be anything like the life we’ve known on Earth.
Now, we have no idea what it means to be “like angels” (so, spare us the wisecracks about wings and harps! That kinds of thing comes from corny paintings, not from Scripture). But it IS safe to say that people who make it to Heaven will have a very different existence from what we’ve experienced as human beings on Earth. Just as Jesus tells us marriage won’t have much meaning in Heaven, it seems likely that our favorite fleshly sins won’t have much meaning there, either. If, in Heaven, we’re no longer human, presumably our primal urges won’t exist.
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### Author:  [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)
#### Post date: [June 11, 2002, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-do-anything-in-heaven/113431/12 "2002-06-11T21:12:33Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by il Topo \*
> **If case #1 is true, then why what’s so great about free will that we have to have it? Indeed, it is really a detriment to have free will in such a case, as it makes us less like God.**
Or rather, it gives us the ability to become like God through our free choice instead of being created like robots. The beauty of it is in **choosing** to follow His will.
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by il Topo \*
> \*\*Case #2 shows that free will is not abrogated in any way by an inclination to always choose good. Thus, free will does not, by itself, explain people’s choices of evil. That is, one can have free will, and never have the desire or inclination to choose evil. Then why do we not have such an inclination to always choose good? How can an all-good God give us an inclination to choose evil? Again, free will doesn’t cut it as an answer. It is this “something more” which explains evil choices, this “inclination”–why do we have it??? \*\*
He gives us the choice to not choose Him. This is the same as not choosing good, which is sometimes the same as choosing evil. Fear and other motivators that exist in the experience on earth take away from choosing God’s will. We could get into original sin and all that, but that’s a whole nother debate. 🙂
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### Author:  [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)
#### Post date: [June 11, 2002, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-do-anything-in-heaven/113431/13 "2002-06-11T22:25:46Z")
It’s too easy to assume that heaven will be exactly like going on holiday to Disneyland; while this may (or may not) be a useful analogy, it completely neglects the important idea of heaven being a _different state of existence_ eternity being ‘timelessness’, not just a very long time; freewill, cause, effect, me, you, this, that, now, then and other concepts may not necessarily translate properly into such a domain.
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### Author:  [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)
#### Post date: [June 12, 2002, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-do-anything-in-heaven/113431/14 "2002-06-12T07:05:51Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Montezuma \*
> \*\*If we could do anything in Heaven could this be acting out your wildest fantasies in your own ‘Universe’ where you are master.
>
> Would God let you act out wars, battles of some sort? Or would their be limits onto what you can act out on from your imagination?
>
> I mean if it’s paradise theirs gotta be free will hasn’t there? \*\*
Well, since most serious descriptions of the Christian Heaven sound less like Club Med, and more like you spend most of your time groking the gestalt of the universe (Groovy, man), may I suggest a DIFFERENT afterlife for your tastes? Say… **Valhalla**?
> [@](#):
>
> Valhalla is the great hall of Odin, wherein he feasts with his chosen heroes, all those who have fallen bravely in battle, for all who die a peaceful death are excluded. The flesh of the boar Schrimnir is served up to them, and is abundant for all. For although this boar is cooked every morning, he becomes whole again every night. For drink the heroes are supplied abundantly with mead from the she-goat Heidrum. When the heroes are not feasting they amuse themselves with fighting. Every day they ride out into the court or field and fight until they cut each other in pieces. This is their pastime; but when meal time comes they recover from their wounds and return to feast in Valhalla.
Some of the entry requirments might be a little tricky, and there’s the whole Ragnarok issue, but otherwise not bad!
Ranchoth
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### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [June 12, 2002, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-do-anything-in-heaven/113431/15 "2002-06-12T12:29:56Z")
Let’s say that, when we go to Heaven we will have full knowledge of what is good and thus will always choose good because doing anything else will just just seem the wrong thing to do. If there is a decision to be made, everyone in Heaven makes the same(“right”) decision. We will be given enough knowledge to know the “right” opinion on any subject, thus everyone will have the same opinions.
Is individuality lost? Why should God care if I, personally, make it to Heaven if there will already be millions of God-bots doing and thinking exactly what I supposedly will be doing and thinking if I happen to make it up there?
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### Author:  [@Allen\_Parine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Allen_Parine)
#### Post date: [June 12, 2002, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-do-anything-in-heaven/113431/16 "2002-06-12T13:44:09Z")
Why do you suppose there is always exactly one right decision and one right opinion, **Czarcasm**? Is there, for example, a correct kind of music to listen to, or is it a matter of taste?
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### Author:  [@il\_Topo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/il_Topo)
#### Post date: [June 12, 2002, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-do-anything-in-heaven/113431/17 "2002-06-12T16:49:17Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Eonwe \*
> \*\ ***il Topo** ,
> The problem I’ve got with your reasoning for Case #2 is that, if a person/being/god will by nature _always_ choose good, then there really is no choice being made. It’s silly to pretend like God could choose evil when you define God as a being who is always good. \*\*
I agree that both cases seem to have inherent problems. But one case must be true if you accept the existence of the typically described Christian god, no?
Is there another case? Or does that leave us only with Case #1?
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### Author:  [@il\_Topo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/il_Topo)
#### Post date: [June 12, 2002, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-do-anything-in-heaven/113431/18 "2002-06-12T17:02:20Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Neurotik \*
> Well, as you point out, God has perfect knowledge of good. People do not.
True.
Why would God intentionally handicap our ability to freely choose to follow his intent by giving us incomplete knowledge? It seems that complete knowledge would only enhance our ability to use our free will to make correct choices.
Or is life a lottery, where our ability to make correct choices given imperfect information is the real test. Perhaps all host of angels are casting their lots right now. ☹
> [@](#):
>
> Of course, that “something more” may also be attributed to “the devil” or some power that wishes to tempt folks towards evil.
This may be the subject of a separate thread, but again, why would God allow the devil to obscure our perception of the choices? This would seem to nullify our ability to choose properly, seemingly for no reason at all.
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### Author:  [@il\_Topo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/il_Topo)
#### Post date: [June 12, 2002, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-do-anything-in-heaven/113431/19 "2002-06-12T17:27:29Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Allen Parine \*
> \*\*
> Can’t speak for the religionists, but it’s implicit in your example that there’s always exactly one best choice. Why couldn’t there be multiple courses of action tied for best from which an “all-good” deity could nondeterministically select? Also, your argument doesn’t apply to choices with no moral implications if such exist. \*\*
Isn’t that really a subset of Case #2? E.g., God has free will, but he is predictably consistent in his choices because of his inclination to do good. In those cases where his nature/inclination does not direct him, he is free to choose. Thus, God can freely choose between results which carry the same amount of benefit, not benefit measured for an individual or group, but presumably measured across the entirety of creation.
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### Author:  [@il\_Topo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/il_Topo)
#### Post date: [June 12, 2002, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-do-anything-in-heaven/113431/20 "2002-06-12T18:01:52Z")
After quoting my Case #1 (No free will in heaven / God has no free will), gigi said:
> [@](#):
>
> **Or rather, it gives us the ability to become like God through our free choice instead of being created like robots. The beauty of it is in choosing to follow His will.**
But if Case #1 is true, and God has no free will, how does the possession of free will gain such beauty? Why is free will considered a good thing if God does not have it?
Are we using our free will to make decisions that will result in the forfeiture of our free will?
After quoting my Case #2 (Free will in heaven, just always choose good), gigi said:
> [@](#):
>
> \*\*He gives us the choice to not choose Him. This is the same as not choosing good, which is sometimes the same as choosing evil. Fear and other motivators that exist in the experience on earth take away from choosing God’s will. We could get into original sin and all that, but that’s a whole nother debate. 🙂 \*\*
The point of Case #2 is to show that we could have been created with free will but also with the inclination to choose only good. Fear and other motivators that exist on earth are unnecessary in this case, and as such, are evil without any reason or justification, and in fact should not exist given the attributes we assign the Christian God.
There does appear to be one universal truth, however: These discussions are always better over a pale ale or two.
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