# Could do anything in Heaven? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 11, 2002, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-do-anything-in-heaven/113431 "2002-06-11T13:14:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2002, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-do-anything-in-heaven/113431/21 "2002-06-12T18:27:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by il Topo \* > \*\*Why would God intentionally handicap our ability to freely choose to follow his intent by giving us incomplete knowledge? It seems that complete knowledge would only enhance our ability to use our free will to make correct choices. > > This may be the subject of a separate thread, but again, why would God allow the devil to obscure our perception of the choices? This would seem to nullify our ability to choose properly, seemingly for no reason at all. \*\* I believe this comes back to original sin. God created man to be in harmony and complete happiness and man messed up. Thus man is born in a state of sin, from [http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/visible4.html#ORIGINAL](http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/visible4.html#ORIGINAL) > [@](#): > > Although it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence". Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ’s grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle. Also, > [@](#): > > But why did God not prevent the first man from sinning? St. Leo the Great responds, “Christ’s inexpressible grace gave us blessings better than those the demon’s envy had taken away.” And St. Thomas Aquinas wrote, “There is nothing to prevent human nature’s being raised up to something greater, even after sin; God permits evil in order to draw forth some greater good. Thus St. Paul says, ‘Where sin increased, grace abounded all the more’; and the Exsultet sings, ‘O happy fault,. . . which gained for us so great a Redeemer!’” Just saw this from **il Topo** : > [@](#): > > The point of Case #2 is to show that we could have been created with free will but also with the inclination to choose only good. We could, but how is that free will unless there is the possibility of evil? In fact, Jesus is the example given to us of a human being (while also God, but let’s not go there) with free will whose will is so in concert with God’s that He did only good. The point is that although we can be inclined toward evil, we are to follow His example and end up at the place you are describing, free to choose anything but wanting to choose God’s will (good/love). It is within our power to do that, and that’s what God asks of us. But He did not force this on us. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2002, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-do-anything-in-heaven/113431/22 "2002-06-12T18:37:50Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by il Topo \* > \*\* Why would God intentionally handicap our ability to freely choose to follow his intent by giving us incomplete knowledge? It seems that complete knowledge would only enhance our ability to use our free will to make correct choices._\* Well, because of humans had perfect knowledge of good, wouldn’t that make them perfect? It may very well be impossible for God to do such a thing…similar to making an object larger than himself. ---
**Author:** ![il\_Topo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/eb9ed0/32.png) [@il\_Topo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/il_Topo)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2002, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-do-anything-in-heaven/113431/23 "2002-06-12T19:23:40Z")
_{Original Sin Discussion by gigi not quoted}_ I have problems with the whole original sin thing as being unjust and perverted. At the same time, it has a certain theological elegance to it given the painful world in which we live. But as you indicate, it may be too much of a tangent for this thread. Then again, maybe the key is for me to comprehend original sin. Maybe that is the block in front of me that I cannot see. Of course, I was baptized as a baby, and I’m not sure what effect that should have had for me on that issue. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gigi \* > \*\*We could, but how is that free will unless there is the possibility of evil? \*\* Does this mean that Case #1 is true? That God (or an angel) has no free will since he always, over an eternity of choices, chooses good? > [@](#): > > **In fact, Jesus is the example given to us of a human being (while also God, but let’s not go there) with free will whose will is so in concert with God’s that He did only good.** He had perfect knowledge of God. I don’t mean to make light of his suffering, but if I had that perfect knowledge of God, I think I would have few dilemmas regarding the right course of action. Does that remove my free will? If he had no free will, how could he choose to sacrifice himself for us? > [@](#): > > \*\*The point is that although we can be inclined toward evil, we are to follow His example and end up at the place you are describing, free to choose anything but wanting to choose God’s will (good/love). It is within our power to do that, and that’s what God asks of us. But He did not force this on us. \*\* But that place at which we are to end up, “how is that free will unless there is the possibility of evil?” Is the ultimate goal the surrender of the gift (i.e., free will) which got us there? (Case #1?) God did force imperfect knowledge upon us. That makes it somewhat of a crap shoot. Perhaps Einstein was wrong: God does play dice. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2002, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-do-anything-in-heaven/113431/24 "2002-06-12T19:45:52Z")
I intend to sit around making four-sided right triangles (in a Euclidean geometry system) and making rocks so big I can’t pick them up. Unless, that is, I’m simultaneously measuring the position and momentum of sub-atomic particles. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2002, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-do-anything-in-heaven/113431/25 "2002-06-12T21:44:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by il Topo \* > Does this mean that Case #1 is true? That God (or an angel) has no free will since he always, over an eternity of choices, chooses good? No, because, He doesn’t have to choose good, but He always does. While the angels were created to praise Him, and know Him, the devil is a fallen angel who chose otherwise. > [@](#): > > [Jesus] had perfect knowledge of God. I don’t mean to make light of his suffering, but if I had that perfect knowledge of God, I think I would have few dilemmas regarding the right course of action. Does that remove my free will? If he had no free will, how could he choose to sacrifice himself for us? He was true God, yes, and true man (definitely beyond the scope of this 🙂 ), and so was tempted to do evil as a human being. Yes, He always made the right choice but that was because He followed the will of God even while facing the uncertainty and suffering of being human. > [@](#): > > But that place at which we are to end up, “how is that free will unless there is the possibility of evil?” Is the ultimate goal the surrender of the gift (i.e., free will) which got us there? (Case #1?) Not at all. The goal, and what God wants for us, is to use that free will to serve Him. He knows what we go through to choose the right path and that means something. And asking for His help to do the right thing, which is often the more difficult thing, means something. “Turn to me, oh man and be saved.” He gave us imperfect knowledge but He also gave us the assurance that He would show us the way , if we **choose** to look for it. ---
**Author:** ![il\_Topo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/eb9ed0/32.png) [@il\_Topo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/il_Topo)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2002, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-do-anything-in-heaven/113431/26 "2002-06-12T22:15:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gigi \* > \*\*No, because, He doesn’t have to choose good, but He always does. While the angels were created to praise Him, and know Him, the devil is a fallen angel who chose otherwise. \*\* Question: Once we earn the right to be in heaven after our death, do we still have the free will to turn away from God? The OP wants to know if we can carry even our somewhat borderline hobbies/fantasies to heaven. I guess I figured not, since anything that detracts from a focus on God is unheavenly, and therefore unnecessary. But you’ve made me think that my assumption (I know, very punny) could be incorrect, especially if we retain our free will. If an angel can fall, then certainly a saint can fall, no? > [@](#): > > \*\*Yes, He always made the right choice but that was because He followed the will of God even while facing the uncertainty and suffering of being human. \*\* My point is, how uncertain could he be, being the true God and all? I agree that a debate regarding the dual nature of Jesus Christ is beyond this thread, but perhaps not to the extent that it directly affects my understanding of how in the heck could Jesus really have been confused about any course of action when he was there at the beginning of it all. I just can’t even imagine the peace of mind and force of purpose that I might obtain if I knew, really KNEW, the whole truth of God and existence (if indeed it is as Christians say it is). Jesus had that knowledge. That had to be a tad comforting, even as he went through the agony. …Unless he really wasn’t sure he was the Real Deal…Is that possible? > [@](#): > > \*\*“Turn to me, oh man and be saved.” He gave us imperfect knowledge but He also gave us the assurance that He would show us the way , if we **choose** to look for it. \*\* Please take no offense when I tell you that that is one of the more frustrating things I hear from Christians…and I hear it a lot. I’ve been looking for him for 11 years now (taking time out to rest every now and then, of course), and he still has not “shown me the way.” Very, very frustrating. ---
**Author:** ![Montezuma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3be4f8/32.png) [@Montezuma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Montezuma)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2002, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-do-anything-in-heaven/113431/27 "2002-06-13T10:03:40Z")
If there is no free will, what would you do in heaven if you can’t act out your fantasies? ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2002, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-do-anything-in-heaven/113431/28 "2002-06-13T12:34:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by il Topo \* > **My point is, how uncertain could he be, being the true God and all? I agree that a debate regarding the dual nature of Jesus Christ is beyond this thread, but perhaps not to the extent that it directly affects my understanding of how in the heck could Jesus really have been confused about any course of action when he was there at the beginning of it all.** Because He was also true man. I can only cite His prayer in Gesthamene when He prays that He not have to undergo the suffering He knows is coming. He knows about it, knows its divine purpose and yet wishes, I think as a human being who is afraid, to not have to endure it. But then He prays that God’s will be done, even as He is true God… > [@](#): > > Please take no offense when I tell you that that is one of the more frustrating things I hear from Christians…and I hear it a lot. I’ve been looking for him for 11 years now (taking time out to rest every now and then, of course), and he still has not “shown me the way.” Very, very frustrating. I don’t take offense at all. I wouldn’t comment on someone else’s spiritual journey as it could only come off as paternalistic. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2002, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-do-anything-in-heaven/113431/29 "2002-06-13T15:44:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Montezuma \* > \*\*If there is no free will, what would you do in heaven if you can’t act out your fantasies? \*\* I think you are missing what we are saying here. You wouldn’t act out your fantasies because the entire nature of your existence would be radically altered. You probably won’t have the same desires that you would during your physical existence on Earth. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2002, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-do-anything-in-heaven/113431/30 "2002-06-14T00:32:53Z")
Which leads back to my original point that there would be no individuality in Heaven. There would be no differing opinions about politics, religion, child rearing, science or any of the things that separate one human from another. Music? You get to listen to the “music of the spheres” so why would you even listen to earthly music? Art? You can see into the every artists’ soul in seventeen diferent dimensions at the same time so I doubt that you wonder about the signifigance of Cubism in modern America. The movies or television? Yeah, right. You are going to have the same knowledge and understanding of the Universe as every other Godbot in Heaven. There will be no new wonders to uncover. There will be no difference of opinions to discuss because everyone will see your point of view and you will see theirs. ---
**Author:** ![Allen\_Parine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/57b2e6/32.png) [@Allen\_Parine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Allen_Parine)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2002, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-do-anything-in-heaven/113431/31 "2002-06-14T16:28:24Z")
**Czarcasm** , if it were true that there is one and only one right opinion, what you’re saying would make sense. You have yet to defend that, however. Why listen to earthly music when I can listen to the “music of the spheres”? How about because I like it. Here on Earth I don’t listen to Lush thinking, “Gee I really wish they were more like Jean-Michel Jarre,” and I don’t listen to Jarre thinking, “Gee I really wish he were more like Lush.” They both have merits and not in spite of their differences but because of their differences. Some kind of Jarre-Lush fusion would not necessarily be the best of both worlds. Even if every person in heaven has the same knowledge and understanding, they maintain their personhood. (At least in the little I’ve read, it is the human Substance that is deified while the human Persons remain distinct. Yes, that intentionally smacks of the Trinity.) Leaving aside the hypothetical (IMHO) notion of Heaven, are you really saying that each and every difference of opinion derives from ignorance? How would you back that up? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2002, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-do-anything-in-heaven/113431/32 "2002-06-15T00:44:47Z")
I was always of the understanding that once you enter Heaven all of your earthly wants and desires fade away. When you combine that with ultimate knowledge and understanding, the inabilty to make mistakes, the ability to fully undestand everyone elses point of view(and they, yours), and an eternity to reach a concensus and the points of individuality that we now have will melt away into near non-existance. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2002, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-do-anything-in-heaven/113431/33 "2002-06-15T20:56:43Z")
And individuality melting away into non-existence sounds very close to Nirvana, so some Buddhists who believe the goal is elimination of the Self may like to hang out with that crowd. Unless for the sake of the debate we’re we presuming individuality as an absolute, transcendent value. The thing is, as **Neurotik** points out, the difference in modes of existence from earthly to heavenly could be such that we would not be comparing apples vs. oranges, but apples vs. OMS fuel pumps. As to “ultimate knowledge and understanding, the inabilty to make mistakes, the ability to fully undestand everyone elses point of view(and they, yours), and an eternity to reach a concensus”? Well… as **Allen Parine** suggests, why would it be necessary to reach absolute consensus on every single thing? The one consensus necessary is on What Is Good, and your being there means you have figured it out already. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2002, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-do-anything-in-heaven/113431/34 "2002-06-15T22:25:33Z")
And my point is exactly that. If the only differences of opinion in Heaven are such minor things such as which color is your favorite or which flavors you prefer, while the major differences of opinion that make up your personality(religion, politics, science) are destroyed through the gaining of absolute knowledge, why should God care if I as an individual make it _to_ Heaven? What could I possibly contribute, _as an individual_? What differences of opinion, outside of the very minor ones shown above, could I possibly contribute? ---
**Author:** ![Dryga\_Yes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@Dryga\_Yes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dryga_Yes)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2002, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-do-anything-in-heaven/113431/35 "2002-06-15T23:19:05Z")
I’m not religious, but I think the most elegant answer is that if you really wanted to do one of the things cited in the OP, you wouldn’t be in heaven to begin with. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2002, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-do-anything-in-heaven/113431/36 "2002-06-15T23:27:52Z")
This indicates that you will have free will to do anything you want, _after_ you’ve been “cleansed” of all desire to do most things people like to do. What of the desire to be the best there is at what you do? Anything you can do, anyone else can do, so why try to do anything? Desires, wants, opinions-these make up a large part of who “we” are, and if these are removed “we” are reduced to being nameless entities resigned to praising God for all eternity. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-do-anything-in-heaven/113431.md?page=1)