# Could Germany have conquered the USA, "High Castle" style, with exclusive access to nukes? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 4, 2015, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-germany-have-conquered-the-usa-high-castle-style-with-exclusive-access-to-nukes/739397 "2015-12-04T09:18:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ispolkom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e47774/32.png) [@Ispolkom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ispolkom)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2015, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-germany-have-conquered-the-usa-high-castle-style-with-exclusive-access-to-nukes/739397/21 "2015-12-04T17:27:05Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Possibly, but “the Empire” was an increasingly nebulous thing by then. Westminster 1931 assured Canada of its own independent authority to go to war. Had England fallen, Lizzie might well have fled to Canada, and might even have established a government in exile, but neither her authority nor that of her government would have compelled Canada to surrender… Especially since her father, George VI, was King during World War II. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2015, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-germany-have-conquered-the-usa-high-castle-style-with-exclusive-access-to-nukes/739397/22 "2015-12-04T17:29:45Z")
> [@Ispolkom](#): > > Especially since her father, George VI, was King during World War II. Details. . ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2015, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-germany-have-conquered-the-usa-high-castle-style-with-exclusive-access-to-nukes/739397/23 "2015-12-04T17:43:14Z")
> [@spifflog](#): > > I don’t think Germany would have every been able to develop the atomic bomb, but that’s the scenario we’ve been given. Why not? If they hadn’t scared off all their Jewish physicists they might have had one by 1941. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2015, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-germany-have-conquered-the-usa-high-castle-style-with-exclusive-access-to-nukes/739397/24 "2015-12-04T17:56:12Z")
The hypothetical greatly understates the effort required to produce fissionable material. Sure, magic resource-free nuclear weapons would have helped Germany. But actually putting in the sweat required to produce one wouldn’t involve “cancel[ing] a number of lower priority weapon projects” so much as “ceasing to produce war materials at all. For years. While at war.” I.e., defeat by the conventional forces of the Soviets, or maybe Lichtenstein, while pouring resources into trying to make a nuke. For perspective: The USA didn’t test the uranium bomb used on Hiroshima (“Little Boy”). They just built it. The plant that produced the enriched uranium used in Little Boy ran on electricity. How much? That one building consumed **one-seventh of all the electricity produced in the United States**. That’s the late-WWII US, the greatest economic engine the world has ever known. The plutonium for the other bomb was produced elsewhere, using additional resources. Had the Germans actually tried to produce a bomb, it would have consumed their war production for years. Edited to add cite for 1/7th figure: [http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h1652.html](http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h1652.html) ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2015, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-germany-have-conquered-the-usa-high-castle-style-with-exclusive-access-to-nukes/739397/25 "2015-12-04T18:19:12Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Why not? If they hadn’t scared off all their Jewish physicists they might have had one by 1941. Heisenberg worked on the German effort, and when told of the American bomb did not believe it. His group, btw, was fighting for uranium with the Luftwaffe, who needed it for instrument panels. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2015, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-germany-have-conquered-the-usa-high-castle-style-with-exclusive-access-to-nukes/739397/26 "2015-12-04T18:32:56Z")
Not to fight the hypothetical but in addition to Sailboat’s objection about the massive industrial process involved, where was Germany going to get the uranium to crank out all these bombs? ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2015, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-germany-have-conquered-the-usa-high-castle-style-with-exclusive-access-to-nukes/739397/27 "2015-12-04T18:42:11Z")
Think about this whenever I watch this show. Not sure even with nukes that Germany actually conquers America. Convinces them to leave the war, totally. But not conquer the US. An army. navy and air force comparable in size to the real life WW2-era German armed forces would not be able invade the US. They would even have trouble even delivering the nukes (IRL they had no long range bombers worthy of the name). Invading the US would be a far greater military undertaking than D-day and that took the combined effort of all the allies. One nuked city would be a catastrophe but don’t see how that would convince the US to unconditionally surrender to Germany and accept a German occupation, and would not make the US that much easier to invade. Much later after the Germans had controlled the industrial power of Europe and Soviet Union for many years you could see them having armed forces that are up to the task, but that is not the story in the Man In the High Castle AFAIK (no spoilers only seen a few episodes!) ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2015, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-germany-have-conquered-the-usa-high-castle-style-with-exclusive-access-to-nukes/739397/28 "2015-12-04T18:44:26Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Heisenberg worked on the German effort, and when told of the American bomb did not believe it. > His group, btw, was fighting for uranium with the Luftwaffe, who needed it for instrument panels. Interesting side note. The key development that made the allies realize that an atomic bomb was hypothetically viable was made by Jewish German scientists, who had fled the nazis, in exile in the UK. German scientists never made that initial breakthrough (that showed that kilogrammes of nuclear material were required, not tons). ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2015, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-germany-have-conquered-the-usa-high-castle-style-with-exclusive-access-to-nukes/739397/29 "2015-12-04T18:44:47Z")
Germany never could have invaded America. But after German nuking London, etc, yes, perhaps the USA would have agreed to end hostilities. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2015, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-germany-have-conquered-the-usa-high-castle-style-with-exclusive-access-to-nukes/739397/30 "2015-12-05T00:08:39Z")
Even Philip Dick knew there was no way the Axis could conquer the USA. That’s why his ending was such a cheat. (It came very close to the “it was all a dream” chestnut.) ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2015, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-germany-have-conquered-the-usa-high-castle-style-with-exclusive-access-to-nukes/739397/31 "2015-12-05T00:36:57Z")
The Wehrmacht was built for quick, large-scale assaults: blitzkrieg. Conquering America would have required a sustained, large-scale land invasion. It wasn’t a remote possibility, in 1776 or 1946. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2015, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-germany-have-conquered-the-usa-high-castle-style-with-exclusive-access-to-nukes/739397/32 "2015-12-05T01:04:48Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > I wonder if they could island-hop from Britain to Iceland to Greenland using some combination of nuclear threat and actual use. Then they would be in range of Canada. This would take a lot less troops and ships than you’d need to conquer America conventionally. You might even be able to stage from Greenland for a mainland invasion. The largest town in Greenland is Nuuk on the South-western coast. It is 2,476 km from Montreal, if you fly directly over Labrador/Ungava. The terrain is rugged and there were no air strips in the 40s. > **[Nuuk](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuuk)** > > Nuuk (.mw-parser-output .IPA-label-small{font-size:85%}.mw-parser-output .references .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .infobox .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .navbox .IPA-label-small{font-size:100%}Greenlandic pronunciation: \[nuːk\] ⓘ; Danish: Nuuk, formerly Godthåb \[ˈkʌtˌhɔˀp\]) is the capital of and most populous city in Greenland, an autonomous territory in the Kingdom of Denmark. Nuuk is the seat of government and the territory's largest cultural and economic center. The major citie Th... The port of Thule is farther north than Thule, so the distance to Montreal from Thule is 3,462 km. > **[Pituffik Space Base](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thule_Air_Base)** > > Pituffik Space Base (/biːduːˈfiːk/ bee-doo-FEEK; .mw-parser-output .IPA-label-small{font-size:85%}.mw-parser-output .references .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .infobox .IPA-label-small,.mw-parser-output .navbox .IPA-label-small{font-size:100%}Greenlandic: \[pitufːik\]) (IATA: THU, ICAO: BGTL), formerly Thule Air Base (/tuːliː/ or /tuːleɪ/), is the United States Space Force's northernmost base, and the northernmost installation of the U.S. Armed Forces, located 1,210 km (750 mi) north of the If you tried to use Greenland as a naval staging base, you’d have to go down the coast of Labrador, get past the Anglo-American garrison at St John’s Newfoundland, and then by Halifax Nova Scotia, which was a major naval base during WWII. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2015, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-germany-have-conquered-the-usa-high-castle-style-with-exclusive-access-to-nukes/739397/33 "2015-12-05T01:15:56Z")
Why couldn’t they have snuck bombs in to our harbors in U-Boats? Smuggle one in to N.Y. harbor, set a timer so the boat can get away again, ka-boom. After five or ten of those, would the U.S. still have the energy to resist? ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2015, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-germany-have-conquered-the-usa-high-castle-style-with-exclusive-access-to-nukes/739397/34 "2015-12-05T01:27:00Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Why couldn’t they have snuck bombs in to our harbors in U-Boats? > > Smuggle one in to N.Y. harbor, set a timer so the boat can get away again, ka-boom. > > After five or ten of those, would the U.S. still have the energy to resist? Good use of the hypothetical, and here’s my hypothetical answer. The U.S. takes a page from Stalin’s book and keeps moving inland. Sure, maybe they could sail a ship into New York, Boston or Philadelphia, but let’s see them try it in Pittsburgh! ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2015, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-germany-have-conquered-the-usa-high-castle-style-with-exclusive-access-to-nukes/739397/35 "2015-12-05T01:32:44Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Why couldn’t they have snuck bombs in to our harbors in U-Boats? > > Smuggle one in to N.Y. harbor, set a timer so the boat can get away again, ka-boom. > > After five or ten of those, would the U.S. still have the energy to resist? Very good. I wonder what popular opinion would be if all the Nazis required was for the USA surrender was to stay out of the war, and send some tribute in raw materials, food, etc. to Germany. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2015, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-germany-have-conquered-the-usa-high-castle-style-with-exclusive-access-to-nukes/739397/36 "2015-12-05T01:55:00Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Soviet Union and the UK I can see, but withy what would Germany have dropped nuclear bombs on the USA? Neither V2 nor long range bombers could have conceivably crossed the Atlantic. So, there was no way Germany could have prevented the USA from building its own bombs. Theoretically, a conquered Europe could have led to bases in Iceland, then into Greenland and from there nukes threatening Canada & New York. Which still leaves the salient question of “why the hell would they have done that ?”. Hitler wasn’t interested in the US in the least - nobody really was back then. It was far away from everything and hadn’t displayed much inclination to get really involved in anything (so far). Besides, would the US have continued the fight with the UK out of the picture ? First, why ?! ; second, how ? The American war effort in Europe was absolutely contingent on bases in England. Even \*Torch \*only worked thanks to allied naval and aerial support and involved British troops. [QUOTE=Really Not All That Bright] Why not? If they hadn’t scared off all their Jewish physicists they might have had one by 1941. [/QUOTE] Then again that’s kind of like saying “If the Nazis hadn’t been Nazis at all”. Anti-Semitism wasn’t a side action for those guys. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2015, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-germany-have-conquered-the-usa-high-castle-style-with-exclusive-access-to-nukes/739397/37 "2015-12-05T01:57:53Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > The Wehrmacht was built for quick, large-scale assaults: blitzkrieg. > > Conquering America would have required a sustained, large-scale land invasion. > > It wasn’t a remote possibility, in 1776 or 1946. Even it was, it was no where near large enough. The invasion of US would have made the D-day look like a skirmish, and that required a military and industrial base far larger than Germany. It would by far have been the largest military operation in history. A few nukes does not change that. WW2 A-bombs were devastating and could certainly have convinced the US to make peace, but they could not (especially without complete air supremacy, or anything close to it) have destroyed the US war machine. The only way the scenario is remotely feasible if instead of an invasion happening in 1940-1945 it happens much later after the Nazis absorb the industrial might of Europe and Soviet Union. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2015, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-germany-have-conquered-the-usa-high-castle-style-with-exclusive-access-to-nukes/739397/38 "2015-12-05T02:00:20Z")
> [@spifflog](#): > > While I agree, I don’t think it fully pertains to this argument. > > The OP states that Germany produces has 72 nukes annually by 1942. He didn’t say that that would take 75% of the war budget to produce so we have to assume that making these nukes doesn’t break the bank. > > If that’s the case, they can spend a very high percentage of the war budget on strategic bombing. > > I don’t think Germany would have every been able to develop the atomic bomb, but that’s the scenario we’ve been given. The OP posited a major German nuclear program and then asked “could they do it?” And the answer is no. Even if Germany had been able to produce nuclear weapons, there’s no plausible scenario where they could have outproduced the United States. So there’s no possibility of Germany conquering America based on its nuclear superiority. The worst case scenario is both sides having nuclear weapons and there being a Cold War standoff between Germany and America. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2015, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-germany-have-conquered-the-usa-high-castle-style-with-exclusive-access-to-nukes/739397/39 "2015-12-05T02:06:03Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Even if Germany had been able to produce nuclear weapons, there’s no plausible scenario where they could have outproduced the United States. This I would disagree with. If the Nazis completely ruled from Central Asia to the UK, and their allies Japan ruled all of Asia (given that any peace treat involved the US relinquishing the pacific), then they would overtake the US eventually (assuming they could keep this empire together). Though even at that point an invasion of the would still be a dicey proposition. Again it would be by far, the largest invasion ever attempted. And it certainly would NOT have been possible before 1945. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2015, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-germany-have-conquered-the-usa-high-castle-style-with-exclusive-access-to-nukes/739397/40 "2015-12-05T02:50:03Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > If England were conquered, would the terms of surrender include other parts of the Empire? Australia, Canada, New Zealand and South Africa were all independent of the U.K., so each one would have made their own assessment whether to continue the fight or not. India would probably have seized the opportunity to declare itself independent. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-germany-have-conquered-the-usa-high-castle-style-with-exclusive-access-to-nukes/739397.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-germany-have-conquered-the-usa-high-castle-style-with-exclusive-access-to-nukes/739397.md?page=3)