# Could Hitler have succeeded in World War II if… **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 26, 2023, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-hitler-have-succeeded-in-world-war-ii-if/981666 "2023-03-26T04:06:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2023, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-hitler-have-succeeded-in-world-war-ii-if/981666/181 "2023-04-19T22:36:08Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > The idea that dropping a bomb over the ocean would accomplish anything is patently ridiculous. And the idea of a demonstration was considered, but it was ultimately abandoned as it would most likely be useless. As Arthur Compton described it: > [@Arthur Compton](#): > > If the test were made on some neutral territory, it was hard to believe that Japan’s determined and fanatical military men would be impressed. If such an open test were made first and failed to bring surrender, the chance would be gone to give the shock of surprise that proved so effective. On the contrary, it would make the Japanese ready to interfere with an atomic attack if they could. Though the possibility of a demonstration that would not destroy human lives was attractive, no one could suggest a way in which it could be made so convincing that it would be likely to stop the war. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2023, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-hitler-have-succeeded-in-world-war-ii-if/981666/182 "2023-04-19T23:33:02Z")
> [@Railer13](#): > > And then, when presented with evidence that America did indeed aid Russia before war was declared, you moved the goalposts just a bit: Note in slightest bit since since GB was still at war with Germany. America a sent a lot of aid to GB and Russia before America entered the war. But all during the time that GB was at war with Germany. If GB had NOT been at war with Germany, America would have sent no aid. > [@Railer13](#): > > So the answer is that America would, and did, provide aid to Russia before America declared war on Germany. Yes, it was to provide assistance to GB, but your original question was answered. Of course they did. Lend lease was before America entered the war. Everyone know that. But it was primarily to aid GB. If GB was not in the war, America would not aid Communist Russia. ---
**Author:** ![Railer13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/railer13/32/9742_2.png) [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2023, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-hitler-have-succeeded-in-world-war-ii-if/981666/183 "2023-04-19T23:40:04Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > If GB was not in the war, America would not aid Communist Russia. Nobody is arguing to the contrary. The fact remains, however, that the USA supplied aid to Russia before declaring war on Germany. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Why would America aid Russia if America is not at war with Germany? So, to answer your question one more time, it was to assist and abet Great Britain. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2023, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-hitler-have-succeeded-in-world-war-ii-if/981666/184 "2023-04-19T23:43:32Z")
> [@Railer13](#): > > Nobody is arguing to the contrary. The fact remains, however, that the USA supplied aid to Russia before declaring war on Germany. And so? No one said anything different. > [@Railer13](#): > > So, to answer your question one more time, it was to assist and abet Great Britain. Context dude, _context._ The context is that **if GB signed a peace deal with Germany,** America would not go to war with Germany nor aid Russia. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Look, early on, the Germans could have gotten GB out of the war by not letting Dunkirk happen, which would have made Halifax PM, and a deal would be made, That was Hitlers last chance of Victory. If Germany could focus on the USSR, and the USSR has not gotten any aid, the Germans could have won. Stalin himself admitted that without lend lease the Russians would have lost. Mind you the war in the East would have dragged on for a long time… ---
**Author:** ![Railer13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/railer13/32/9742_2.png) [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2023, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-hitler-have-succeeded-in-world-war-ii-if/981666/185 "2023-04-19T23:48:55Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > And so? No one said anything different. Um, you implied that the USA would not have supplied aid to Russia, without a declaration of war: > [@DrDeth](#): > > Why would America aid Russia if America is not at war with Germany? But I can see it’s pointless to continue this discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2023, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-hitler-have-succeeded-in-world-war-ii-if/981666/186 "2023-04-20T02:07:25Z")
> [@Askance](#): > > No, they chose to husband the RAF as they knew it would be needed to defend the homeland. The RAF had plenty of range to cover Dunkirk if they wished to, it’s just there across the narrow Channel. I strongly disagree with this statement. If they had the legs needed to stay on station to back up their ships they would have used them instead of the hail-Mary boat flotilla. > [@Askance](#): > > You’ve not answered my question, which was nothing to do with tactical bombing. You keep saying the Germans would prevent the Russians from moving their ‘tank factory’ (in reality, multiple plants) to the Urals. How, with no strategic bombing force? they had the Junkers 87 which was a precision ground attack aircraft and they had superior fighter aircraft to back it up. > [@Askance](#): > > An example Tooze gives is the huge French coal mining industry, the Germans thought all their fuel worries were over when they conquered those. But no; the coal coming from them was already used by the French population and industry. How were they going to get more out of it? Choices were: They’re not flying aircraft or running tanks on coal. If you take the UK out of the picture they have more of everything to attack Russia with. ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2023, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-hitler-have-succeeded-in-world-war-ii-if/981666/187 "2023-04-20T04:34:40Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I strongly disagree with this statement. If they had the legs needed to stay on station to back up their ships they would have used them instead of the hail-Mary boat flotilla. The range of the RAF is not a matter for your personal disagreement, it’s a recorded fact. Of course Hurricanes and Spits based in southern England can get to Dunkirk, arguing otherwise is just making yourself look silly. The Hurricane’s range was [300 miles](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawker_Hurricane), Biggins Hill to Dunkirk is about 40 miles. The RN stayed out for the same reason the RAF did, to preserve them for homeland defense. > [@Magiver](#): > > they had the Junkers 87 which was a precision ground attack aircraft and they had superior fighter aircraft to back it up. Now here is where the range argument does come into play. In no way can the Germans use those tactical aircraft to achieve a strategic aim like prevention of moving factories. The bomb load a Stuka could carry was laughably small for that purpose, [500kg](https://www.britannica.com/technology/Stuka) If they could, why didn’t they historically? > [@Magiver](#): > > If you take the UK out of the picture they have more of everything to attack Russia with. No, they don’t. Where do more men come from? Where do the extra workers to mine coal, iron ore, grow food, run trains barges and ships, manufacture your mythical extra tanks and planes etc etc etc, come from, quite apart from the extra soldiers you posit? And no matter how much you magic up, they cannot triple the resources they had historically which is what qualified historians of the period say was necessary. Cannot. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2023, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-hitler-have-succeeded-in-world-war-ii-if/981666/188 "2023-04-20T06:36:51Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > If they had the legs needed to stay on station to back up their ships they would have used them instead of the hail-Mary boat flotilla. The small boats were needed to get the men from the beaches to the big ships. The problem was not having port facilities for big ships (and AIUI the RAF wasn’t just being held in reserve, there was also engagement further back from the beaches). ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2023, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-hitler-have-succeeded-in-world-war-ii-if/981666/189 "2023-04-20T07:28:11Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I strongly disagree with this statement. If they had the legs needed to stay on station to back up their ships they would have used them instead of the hail-Mary boat flotilla. There were many other good practical reasons for avoiding using the larger navy ships and using smaller vessels but range of RAF support aircraft was not one of them. [Here’s a good account](https://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/blog/the-rafs-role-in-the-evacuation-of-dunkirk/#:~:text=Initially%2C%20the%20RAF%20attempted%20to,but%20not%20continuous%20air%20cover.) of what happened, the role that the RAF played and the problems they faced. Range and time on station is not mentioned. I live within sight of both the French coast and RAF Manston. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2023, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-hitler-have-succeeded-in-world-war-ii-if/981666/190 "2023-04-20T14:29:43Z")
> [@Railer13](#): > > > [@DrDeth](#): > > > > And so? No one said anything different. > > Um, you implied that the USA would not have supplied aid to Russia, without a declaration of war: > > > [@DrDeth](#): > > > > Why would America aid Russia if America is not at war with Germany? > > But I can see it’s pointless to continue this discussion. I’m not DrDeth. But I think the point he is trying to make is that if Japan had attacked the United States (as it did historically) but Germany had not declared war on us, the United States might have chosen to devote all of its resources to fighting against Japan and would have cut off the supply of resources being sent to the British and Soviets. ---
**Author:** ![Railer13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/railer13/32/9742_2.png) [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2023, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-hitler-have-succeeded-in-world-war-ii-if/981666/191 "2023-04-20T15:12:16Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > if Japan had attacked the United States (as it did historically) but Germany had not declared war on us, the United States might have chosen to devote all of its resources to fighting against Japan and would have cut off the supply of resources being sent to the British and Soviets. Maybe, maybe not. But my original point still stands: that the USA aided the USSR before the USA was officially in a war against Germany. Had things gone differently, what might have happened is pure speculation. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2023, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-hitler-have-succeeded-in-world-war-ii-if/981666/192 "2023-04-20T15:56:25Z")
> [@Railer13](#): > > Had things gone differently, what might have happened is pure speculation. How things might have gone differently in WWII is after all the topic of the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2023, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-hitler-have-succeeded-in-world-war-ii-if/981666/193 "2023-04-20T16:47:02Z")
Even without US aid, and even if we accept Stalin claiming that he’d have lost the war without US aid, that doesn’t mean the Germans could have won. There’s no rule that makes it so that you always have a winner and a loser - it’s entirely possible for both sides to fail to achieve their strategic objectives in armed conflict. Is it possible that, without distractions on the Western front and without US aid to the USSR, that Germany could have militarily defeated the Red Army? Perhaps. I still don’t see how Germany would stop the Soviets from moving their manufacturing capabilities East using only Junkers, though, or how they’d prevent their own logistical chain from completely falling apart the further into Russia they got. But even if the Nazis DID strike a blow so damaging that it caused the Red Army to fall and the USSR to collapse, there are whole lightyears between tactically defeating the Red Army and managing to successfully occupy territory. Look at the Japanese experience in China. China was in a much, much weaker position when Japan invaded. It was in the midst of a civil war between communists, nationalists, and seccessionist warlords. There really was no unified China for Japan to fight against, and yet despite this when the Japanese Empire tried to gobble up China, it choked. Even if Germany’s assault destroyed the Soviet Union as a cohesive entity, there’s simply no way that Germany could have occupied and pacified a set of nations with twice the population spread across 20 million square kilometers - _even if we ignore all the other countries they were trying to occupy at the same time_. Germany’s absolute best case scenario, where no one intervenes as they try to pummel the USSR, is a defeat of the Red Army and the overthrowing of Stalin, followed by years or decades of failure to control the occupied land. And even that isn’t a sure thing. ---
**Author:** ![Tatterdemalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/43a26b/32.png) [@Tatterdemalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tatterdemalion)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2023, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-hitler-have-succeeded-in-world-war-ii-if/981666/194 "2023-04-20T18:55:55Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > How things might have gone differently in WWII is after all the topic of the thread. These discussions always remind of the immortal words of the late great Anna Russel in her definitive rendition of Verdi’s Hamlet, “Things would be very different if they were not as they are!” ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2023, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-hitler-have-succeeded-in-world-war-ii-if/981666/195 "2023-04-20T18:56:10Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I’m not DrDeth. But I think the point he is trying to make is that if Japan had attacked the United States (as it did historically) but Germany had not declared war on us, the United States might have chosen to devote all of its resources to fighting against Japan and would have cut off the supply of resources being sent to the British and Soviets. Well, yes. But that was not my point. My point was that if GB had signed a peace treaty with Germany, the USA would not need to send aid to GB, and FDR would not ask congress to send aid to the USSR, since neither America nor GB would be at war with Germany, but later both with Japan. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2023, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-hitler-have-succeeded-in-world-war-ii-if/981666/196 "2023-04-20T18:59:27Z")
> [@Railer13](#): > > Maybe, maybe not. But my original point still stands: that the USA aided the USSR before the USA was officially in a war against Germany Yes, and so? Only because GB was at war with Germany and FDR wanted to aid GB. But IF, note that **IF** , GB was no longer at war with Germany, America would never send aid at all, and would never be involved with any war with Germany. America only sent aid to Russia as it was GB’s ally. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2023, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-hitler-have-succeeded-in-world-war-ii-if/981666/197 "2023-04-20T19:27:14Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yes, and so? Only because GB was at war with Germany and FDR wanted to aid GB. But IF, note that **IF** , GB was no longer at war with Germany, America would never send aid at all, and would never be involved with any war with Germany. This assumes that America didn’t have any of their own interests in preventing a Nazi victory, which is QUITE the assertion to make. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2023, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-hitler-have-succeeded-in-world-war-ii-if/981666/198 "2023-04-20T19:32:50Z")
Quoting myself from upthread as a response to the US/GB/USSR aid triangle discussion. It seems my earlier comments fit here too. > [@LSLGuy](#): > > Sometimes “my enemy’s enemy is my friend” really works. > > There’s a lot of daylight between “The USA would prefer the Nazis lose” and “The USA has declared and is waging active war against the Nazis” > > If FDR had a choice between manufacturing a bunch of expensive war materiel then shipping it to the Soviets so they could get killed while using the stuff to kill Nazis, or instead to hire a couple million young Americans to get killed while using the stuff to kill Nazis, I have a feeling I know which alternative FDR would have supported. > > Yes, subcontracting the dying to a 3rd party has its own challenges. But it’s still a pretty attractive way to run at least part of a foreign policy; countries all over the world try it pretty regularly. ---
**Author:** ![Asuka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@Asuka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asuka)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2023, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-hitler-have-succeeded-in-world-war-ii-if/981666/199 "2023-04-20T19:53:08Z")
No matter what in our timeline the moment Japan attacks the United States and Germany was allied with them fairly soon after Pearl Harbor somebody was going to declare war on one another. Germany already was attacking American warships guarding convoys in the Atlantic something was going to happen eventually. The bigger what if I read is if the Americans detected the Japanese attack fleet before it actually launched the attack and the Japanese called off the attack. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2023, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-hitler-have-succeeded-in-world-war-ii-if/981666/200 "2023-04-20T19:57:39Z")
> [@Asuka](#): > > The bigger what if I read is if the Americans detected the Japanese attack fleet before it actually launched the attack and the Japanese called off the attack. Even if the task force was detected and the attack called off (unlikely), the attack on [Clark Field](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Clark_Field) in the Philippines would still have happened and we still would have declared war on Japan. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-hitler-have-succeeded-in-world-war-ii-if/981666.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-hitler-have-succeeded-in-world-war-ii-if/981666.md?page=11)