# Could hugging a policeman cause his gun to fire? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 9, 2012, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-hugging-a-policeman-cause-his-gun-to-fire/627655 "2012-07-09T01:32:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-hugging-a-policeman-cause-his-gun-to-fire/627655/41 "2012-07-09T18:39:16Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > I also notice that they are required to carry in an approved holster, at their waist, on their firing side. They are expressly forbidden from wearing shoulder holsters. > > They are also forbidden from carrying if their BAC is above .02. Hopefully he wasn’t drinking at the party… According to this article, it sounds like the officer was clearly breaking that requirement. > **[HuffPost - Breaking News, U.S. and World News](https://www.huffpost.com/)** > > Read the latest headlines, news stories, and opinion from Politics, Entertainment, Life, Perspectives, and more. > [@](#): > > Adaisha Miller was celebrating what would have been her 25th birthday Monday. Chief Ralph Godbee called her death a tragic, “unfathomable” accident. > > “We are profoundly sad at their loss,” he said, referring to Miller’s family. > > Godbee said the gun was in a waist holster made of soft material, which would have allowed the trigger to be activated. He said there’s no evidence the officer fired the gun, and he believes the gun discharged after Miller hugged the officer from behind early Sunday during a party at the officer’s home. > > “There was some manipulation along the officer’s waistline (that) he did not control,” Godbee told reporters. I don’t think “unfathomable” is really the word Chief Godbee is looking for, here. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-hugging-a-policeman-cause-his-gun-to-fire/627655/42 "2012-07-09T19:11:51Z")
Guns go off unexpectedly all the time. I’ve read many accounts over the years of guns in waistbands going off and shooting the victim in the groin or leg. If this lady reached in for a hug and pulled strongly then of course the gun could go off. We don’t know exactly where her hands were or how they brushed up against the holstered gun. Typically the person wearing the gun gets hit, but in this case it was the person behind him. It was just a bizarre freak accident. It is a tragic accident, but stuff like this happens. ---
**Author:** ![ducati](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/cc9497/32.png) [@ducati](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ducati)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-hugging-a-policeman-cause-his-gun-to-fire/627655/43 "2012-07-09T20:10:47Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Guns go off unexpectedly all the time. I’ve read many accounts over the years of guns in waistbands going off and shooting the victim in the groin or leg. > > If this lady reached in for a hug and pulled strongly then of course the gun could go off. We don’t know exactly where her hands were or how they brushed up against the holstered gun. Typically the person wearing the gun gets hit, but in this case it was the person behind him. > > It was just a bizarre freak accident. It is a tragic accident, but stuff like this happens. You’ve never actually seen a gun, have you? It’s OK. We’re not judging. Now, it may be a true statement that guns sometimes go off unexpectedly, but **they do not do so without the trigger being pulled** - intentionally or unintentionally. The officer’s issued weapon has a trigger pull of either 6.5 or 7 pounds. Something pulled that trigger, and it wasn’t a hug. > [@aceplace57](#): > > If this lady reached in for a hug and pulled strongly then of course the gun could go off. No, it couldn’t. Guns aren’t designed or built where some slight, ambiguous pressure on the holster just sets them off. No, either someone was playing/demonstrating with the gun, or it got knocked loose from its holster and the trigger was pulled in the attempt to regain control of the gun. The gun did not just “go off”. This is actually the only fact of this case that we know for sure. I’m all ears for the rest of the story… [/PH] ---
**Author:** ![Moonlitherial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4bbf92/32.png) [@Moonlitherial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moonlitherial)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-hugging-a-policeman-cause-his-gun-to-fire/627655/44 "2012-07-09T20:25:57Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > I also notice that they are required to carry in an approved holster, at their waist, on their firing side. They are expressly forbidden from wearing shoulder holsters. > > They are also forbidden from carrying if their BAC is above .02. Hopefully he wasn’t drinking at the party… > [@Merneith](#): > > According to this article, it sounds like the officer was clearly breaking that requirement. > [HuffPost - Breaking News, U.S. and World News | HuffPost](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-wires/20120709/us-fatal-hug/) Nothing in the article says that he was drinking and the only statements about the gun and holster were: Police Chief Ralph Godbee told reporters Monday that Miller was dancing with the officer and touching his waist from behind when his holstered handgun fired, striking Miller in the chest. Godbee says the gun was in a waist holster made of soft material. He says there is no evidence the officer fired the weapon, but he stopped short of saying Miller may have accidentally pulled the trigger. Which part of those requirements was he clearly breaking? ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-hugging-a-policeman-cause-his-gun-to-fire/627655/45 "2012-07-09T20:34:15Z")
> [@ducati](#): > > You’ve never actually seen a gun, have you? It’s OK. We’re not judging. > > Now, it may be a true statement that guns sometimes go off unexpectedly, but **they do not do so without the trigger being pulled** - intentionally or unintentionally. The officer’s issued weapon has a trigger pull of either 6.5 or 7 pounds. > > Something pulled that trigger, and it wasn’t a hug. > > No, it couldn’t. Guns aren’t designed or built where some slight, ambiguous pressure on the holster just sets them off. > > No, either someone was playing/demonstrating with the gun, or it got knocked loose from its holster and the trigger was pulled in the attempt to regain control of the gun. > > The gun did not just “go off”. This is actually the only fact of this case that we know for sure. > > I’m all ears for the rest > > of the story… [/PH] Right now, based on what little we know, my money is on the cop having the gun in a cheap nylon or suede holster. What with the dancing and the sweating and the drinking and the hugging, the gun unsurprisingly fell out. If he’s fat and paired his cheap holster with a cheap, flimsy belt, a roll of flab is enough to have dislodged the gun just from normal movement. Anyway, I think the gun fell and somebody tried to catch it, resulting in the trigger being depressed and the gun firing at an unusual angle. Folks should be taught from an early age that if a gun or knife falls, you let it fall. Trying to catch them increases the chances of injury. ---
**Author:** ![Nunzio\_Tavulari](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Nunzio\_Tavulari](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nunzio_Tavulari)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-hugging-a-policeman-cause-his-gun-to-fire/627655/46 "2012-07-09T22:43:56Z")
What disturbs me most about this story is how little time had passed before this became a campaign to sue the officer, city and likely the gun manufacturer and holster maker. All of the statements I’ve read include a statement by the mother that this never should have happened and someone is responsible. I see it as a freak accident that bears looking into even though the circumstances are unlikely to be replicated or have such dire results. The modern judicial system being what it is, the case will settle out of court. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2012, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-hugging-a-policeman-cause-his-gun-to-fire/627655/47 "2012-07-09T23:07:23Z")
> [@Moonlitherial](#): > > Nothing in the article says that he was drinking Oh, right. I should have snipped out the part where Bear\_Nenno mentions drinking. I wasn’t talking about that. I have no idea if the guy was drinking or not. > [@](#): > > and the only statements about the gun and holster were: > > Police Chief Ralph Godbee told reporters Monday that Miller was dancing with the officer and touching his waist from behind when his holstered handgun fired, striking Miller in the chest. > > Godbee says the gun was in a waist holster made of soft material. He says there is no evidence the officer fired the weapon, but he stopped short of saying Miller may have accidentally pulled the trigger. > > Which part of those requirements was he clearly breaking? The part I was claiming that the officer seems to have broken regulations is that the chief claimed the gun was in a soft material holster and that the woman set the gun off merely by touching the officer around the waist. I was looking at the regulations posted [earlier in the thread.](https://www.detroitmi.gov/Portals/0/docs/police/DPD%20Civil%20Rights/PENDING_304.1_Firearms.pdf) Specifically, I was looking at here: > [@](#): > > 304.1- 10.2 Uniform (On-Duty) > > 1. Members shall carry their DPD issued or approved primary sidearm holstered in a > DPD issued or approved holster, worn in accordance with DPD uniform standards. > > 2. Secondary sidearms must be carried holstered and concealed in such a manner > that allows for no unusual bulges, protrusions or exposure. > > 304.1- 10.3 Civilian Attire (On-Duty and Off-Duty) > > 1. All members shall carry their DPD issued or approved sidearm holstered, on their > strong hand side, unless otherwise authorized in writing by the member’s > Commanding Officer. The written authorization shall be retained in the member’s > command personnel file and shall be effective until the member is transferred to > another command or notified by the member’s commanding officer that such > authorization has been revoked. Admittedly, I was working on the assumption that the department wouldn’t have approved a flimsy pistol-cozy of a holster that would allow a gun to be triggered while it was inside. Also, on reread - perhaps civilians don’t have to get permission from the department to keep their department-issued weapons in department-approved holsters? So I’m willing to retract the “clearly” while stating that perhaps the Detroit PD needs to take a long, hard, look at their holster-approval procedures. I should also say - it appears that the article has been updated since I posted that link earlier this afternoon. The portion I quoted with Godbee’s remarks isn’t there anymore. However, the new version of the article now contains this: > [@](#): > > Godbee said the officer’s gun had a safety mechanism built into the trigger. > > The Smith & Wesson M&P primarily was designed for police and military use. It does not have a safety switch, but the trigger has to be pulled back completely for the gun to fire, certified firearms instructor Rick Ector said. > > Ector said that if properly holstered, the gun cannot be fired accidentally. > > But Godbee said Parrish’s waist holster was made of a soft material, and it would be possible for the trigger to be pulled while the gun was in it. He said the barrel direction typically would have been pointing down while holstered. > > The gun’s angle also is at question, according to David Balash, a former Michigan State Police firearms examiner. > > “What’s going to be very important here is the angle of the entry of the wound to the victim (and) if there is in fact any gunpowder residue,” Balash said. “I’m having a great deal of difficulty understanding how a weapon that’s pointed at the ground can be turned literally 110 degrees minimum to be in an upward position to strike someone.” The longer this story sits, the worse it smells. Here’s a direct link to this version of the article [HuffPost - Breaking News, U.S. and World News | HuffPost](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/09/adaisha-miller-detroit-shot-hug-cop_n_1659689.html)\*\*\*\* ---
**Author:** ![picunurse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7bcc69/32.png) [@picunurse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/picunurse)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-hugging-a-policeman-cause-his-gun-to-fire/627655/48 "2012-07-10T00:42:42Z")
[This](http://xfinity.comcast.net/articles/news-national/20120708/US.Fatal.Hug/) article says the holster was a neoprene-like material. > [@](#): > > But Godbee said Parrish’s waist holster was made of a soft, neoprene-type material, and it would be possible for the trigger to be pulled while the gun was in it. They also quote a firearms expert: > [@](#): > > David Balash, a former Michigan State Police firearms examiner, said the investigation also should look at the gun’s angle given that Miller was shot in the chest. > > “What’s going to be very important here is the angle of the entry of the wound to the victim (and) if there is in fact any gunpowder residue,” Balash said. “I’m having a great deal of difficulty understanding how a weapon that’s pointed at the ground can be turned literally 110 degrees minimum to be in an upward position to strike someone.” It appears to me that there’s more here than meets the eye. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-hugging-a-policeman-cause-his-gun-to-fire/627655/49 "2012-07-10T01:39:00Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Guns go off unexpectedly all the time. I’ve read many accounts over the years of guns in waistbands going off and shooting the victim in the groin or leg. > > If this lady reached in for a hug and pulled strongly then of course the gun could go off. We don’t know exactly where her hands were or how they brushed up against the holstered gun. Typically the person wearing the gun gets hit, but in this case it was the person behind him. > > It was just a bizarre freak accident. It is a tragic accident, but stuff like this happens. Guns that fire when they “fall” out of belts and waistbands is not mainly due to impact, but people grabbing to catch the gun and pulling the trigger in the grab motion. That’s how the [Plaxico Burress scenario went down.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plaxico_Burress) ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-hugging-a-policeman-cause-his-gun-to-fire/627655/50 "2012-07-10T15:06:59Z")
The simplest explanation is that Ms. Miller pulled the gun from the holster when she wrapped her arms around the officer from behind, either accidently or intentionally. As soon as the gun was removed the holster, one of her fingers entered the trigger guard while (at the same time) the muzzle swung 90 degrees toward her. In other words, if the gun was on the officer’s right hip, the muzzle was pointing down (6 o’clock position) while in the holster, and the gun swung 90 degrees CW (to the 9 o’clock position) as Ms. Miller removed it from the holster. The gun pivoted on her finger that was within the trigger guard. At least that’s my theory. ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-hugging-a-policeman-cause-his-gun-to-fire/627655/51 "2012-07-10T16:17:58Z")
> [@picunurse](#): > > It appears to me that there’s more here than meets the eye. There very well might be. The Detroit Police Department does its share of turning a blind eye to police misconduct. I’m almost prepared to bet that the cop was drinking, and did something stupid with the gun, and this was conveniently ommitted from the official reports. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-hugging-a-policeman-cause-his-gun-to-fire/627655/52 "2012-07-10T16:49:08Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > There very well might be. The Detroit Police Department does its share of turning a blind eye to police misconduct. I’m almost prepared to bet that the cop was drinking, and did something stupid with the gun, and this was conveniently ommitted from the official reports. Unless something different comes out I tend to not believe this just due to the fact that the victim’s mother does not seem to be arguing about the official reports. It was apparently a party. I’m assuming that means there were more than 3 people there. Friends and family of the victim. No one is screaming cover-up. ---
**Author:** ![Fubaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@Fubaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fubaya)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2012, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-hugging-a-policeman-cause-his-gun-to-fire/627655/53 "2012-07-10T23:09:05Z")
A new story says a police official familiar with the investigation says she was on her knees doing “some type of ‘exotic dance’” and tugging at his waist. The mother says nonsense, eyewitnesses told the family that they were side-by-side and hugged when the gun went off. Maybe the people were embarrassed to tell her about the “exotic dance” or maybe the “official familiar with the investigation” is full of shit. > [@Merneith](#): > > Admittedly, I was working on the assumption that the department wouldn’t have approved a flimsy pistol-cozy of a holster that would allow a gun to be triggered while it was inside. Is actually doesn’t say the holster has to be approved for plainclothes or off duty cops. On duty, it says “in a DPD issued or approved holster.” Off duty it says “carry their DPD issued or approved sidearm holstered.” The “issued or approved” bit pertains to the firearm, not the holster. So any holster will apparently do for off duty cops. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2012, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-hugging-a-policeman-cause-his-gun-to-fire/627655/54 "2012-07-11T09:56:14Z")
Only in our society would the fact that the _other_ person was doing something sexual be a problem worth covering up. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2012, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-hugging-a-policeman-cause-his-gun-to-fire/627655/55 "2012-07-14T09:09:48Z")
> [@Fubaya](#): > > Is actually doesn’t say the holster has to be approved for plainclothes or off duty cops. On duty, it says “in a DPD issued or approved holster.” Off duty it says “carry their DPD issued or approved sidearm holstered.” The “issued or approved” bit pertains to the firearm, not the holster. So any holster will apparently do for off duty cops. This might explain the question I had, about if a lightweight (and thin) neoprene holster could ever be approved by any PD? ---
**Author:** ![anson2995](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c77e96/32.png) [@anson2995](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anson2995)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-hugging-a-policeman-cause-his-gun-to-fire/627655/56 "2012-07-15T14:22:01Z")
[The story keeps changing, and it keeps getting more fishy:](http://www.freep.com/article/20120710/NEWS01/120710037/Police-officer-gun-holstered-Adaisha-Miller) > [@](#): > > Adaisha Miller was on her knees while dancing behind an off-duty Detroit police officer early Sunday when his holstered gun fired, striking her in the chest, a police official familiar with the investigation told the Free Press today. > > The official said that explains how Miller was shot in the chest while dancing behind Officer Isaac Parrish during a fish fry early Sunday at his home on Archdale. > > The official said the angle of the gunshot is possible because Miller was not standing and described it as some type of “exotic dance” where Miller, 24, was tugging at Parrish’s waist. > > Miller’s family members strongly disputed that account today. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-hugging-a-policeman-cause-his-gun-to-fire/627655/57 "2012-07-15T14:50:59Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > Not what I assumed this thread was about. “THIS is your weapon, THIS is your gun. THIS is for killing, THIS is for fun!” ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-hugging-a-policeman-cause-his-gun-to-fire/627655/58 "2012-07-15T15:39:03Z")
The standard DPD weapon is the Smith & Wesson M&P, which replaced the Glock-22 in about 2005. So depending on when this officer join the force and was issued his weapon it’s likely one or the other. I’m having a lot of trouble understanding how this could have happened. Both weapons are famously safe and designed specifically for thing like this to not happen. \*\*If the weapon was holstered and safetied \*\*I really can’t see how this took place. Froget the angle (the bullet could be ricocheted off the floor) doesn’t it seem supremely unlikely that she could have removed the safety AND fired the gun accidentally? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-hugging-a-policeman-cause-his-gun-to-fire/627655/59 "2012-07-15T15:57:11Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > The standard DPD weapon is the Smith & Wesson M&P, which replaced the Glock-22 in about 2005. So depending on when this officer join the force and was issued his weapon it’s likely one or the other. > > I’m having a lot of trouble understanding how this could have happened. Both weapons are famously safe and designed specifically for thing like this to not happen. \*\*If the weapon was holstered and safetied \*\*I really can’t see how this took place. Froget the angle (the bullet could be ricocheted off the floor) doesn’t it seem supremely unlikely that **she could have removed the safety** AND fired the gun accidentally? Neither gun has an external thumb safety. Both have internal firing pin safeties that disengage when the trigger is pulled. Both guns have a secondary lever in the middle of the trigger that blocks the pull unless a finger(or something) is on the trigger doing the pulling. ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2012, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-hugging-a-policeman-cause-his-gun-to-fire/627655/60 "2012-07-15T18:26:09Z")
I wonder if they’re misspelling her name, and it’s really “A-a.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-hugging-a-policeman-cause-his-gun-to-fire/627655.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-hugging-a-policeman-cause-his-gun-to-fire/627655.md?page=4)