Could I Land A Big Airliner With Just Radio Assistance?

[Broomstick]

@Jojo

OK I think I’m pretty cool now on what to do:

Get on the radio with a view to re-engaging autopilot.

As the Big Iron Boys have said - look for a microphone, stay away from the thing that looks like a telephone. Maybe they can elaborate on this, but the quickest source of microphone may be a pilot’s headset. You would think that getting to the radio would be fairly easy, but that’s a big assumption. Once you get the headset, are you sure it’s plugged in correctly? If it’s not, do you know where the plugs go? If you can’t find a headset, or it’s obviously broken, what then?

Anyhow, assuming everything is hooked up correctly (either because it is, or you were able to troubleshoot properly) key down on the mike (um… is it obvious to non-pilots, non-hams how to do this?) and say, clearly and distinctly, “MAYDAY MAYDAY MAYDAY”. Then take your finger off the red button. Trust me, you will get attention (if the antics of the hijacked plane haven’t already attracted attention).

Don’t worry about what frequency to use - any frequency used by big jets will have someone listening. ATC will adjust to accomodate you in an emergency - once it’s clear you’re not a big iron pilot but you’re the best available it is unlikely they’ll ask you to change frequencies anyhow. They don’t want to risk you making a mistake and losing contact.

State the situation - you’ve just regained control after a hijack, there’s no qualified pilot on board, and you’re giving it the old college try. Let them worry about finding someone to talk you through whatever needs to be done. You might, actually, wind up talking to a pilot like LSLGuy or Pilot141 instead of a controller - controllers don’t fly airplanes, after all, pilots do. Anyhow, your job is to remain calm as possible (ha!) and follow instructions.

However I think we have to assume that the first thing the bad guys will do upon gaining control of the aircraft is disengage the autopilot (since they want to fly the plane towards their target).

I don’t know about that - if they’ve prepped a lot they might be able to re-program the autopilot. Even if they didn’t - if they trimmed for straight-and-level flight in order to get to their target you will have an interval of time where the airplane, even without autopilot, will tend to continue in straight and level flight. Even the small, unsophisticated airplanes I fly, which are much more subject to gusts and turbulence, can often be flown “hands off” for a surprisingly long period of time if the weather is good.

But yes, turning off the autopilot might be something a pilot-hijacker would do. In which case you will need to be told how to turn it back on. On the bright side, finding and turning it on will probably be easier than programming a 757 for autoland.

So, after I have dispatched the bad guys to that great flight school in the sky and sat myself down in the hotseat, I presume that the plane will be gracefully arcing down towards the earth. This is the safest assumption.

If the airplane is headed down under such circumstances it is unlikely you will have time to get to the controls, much less regain control, before impact.

In order to survive this scenario, you have to disable the pilot-hijackers during level flight, in such a manner they will not be able to crash the plane or put into an unusual flight attitude.

How do I get the plane to re-ascend so that I get time to radio for help etc? Do I gently pull back on the steering wheel thingy while watching the altimeter? Do I push the big red button that says “Under No Circumstances Push This Button”? What?

Huh. Well, as I said, if you were pointing downward… anyhow, for the sake of argument, let’s make the wild assumption you were physically able to reach a pilot seat prior to impact, in fact, soon enough to have any potential for doing good. Uh, yeah, you would pull back on the “steering wheel”… but, you see, if you pull back too far you’ll stall the airplane. In layman’s terms, you’ll so disrupt the airflow over the wings that they’ll stop generating lift. With no or inadequate lift, you start going down again. Your tendency will be to keep pulling back even more, although at that point it will only aggravate the situation…

Real basic rule of survival here - don’t stall the plane. I, as a pilot, MIGHT have a small chance of recovering from a stall in 757… if you are not a pilot (that is, have never had a flight lesson of any sort) you will not be able to do this.

Gosh, I’m going to defer this back to the Big Iron Boys. Or at least someone on this board who is a flight instructor. Guys, I don’t think this scenario of passenger-takes-over is going to work unless the passenger has the luxury of taking over from straight and level flight. What do you think?

[Shrinking_Violet]

@Broomstick

If the airplane is headed down under such circumstances it is unlikely you will have time to get to the controls, much less regain control, before impact.

Just how long would it take a plane to fly straight down into the ground from, say, 30,000 ft? I was under the impression it would take minutes …

[Dr.Lao]

It take minutes with a controlled, emergency descent. But pointing downward as in nearly vertical, it would take more like under one minute. Provided the aircraft actually stays together that long, that is.

[RickJay]

@Broomstick

I actually picture the scenario (assuming I’m present) as something like this:

The interior of the first class looks like a butcher shop - dead bodies, blood, gouged eyeballs, etc. The Big Tourist Guys who just beat the hijackers to death are arguing about who flies the airplane.

I stand up “Excuse me? I’m a pilot - I’ll take left seat up front”

These he-men, still riding on their adrenaline highs (and perhaps nursing some knife wounds), most young sorts, look down from their vantage of six feet and more of height at the mousy little woman pushing 40 with the thick glasses and…

laugh

I’m laughing now, that’s for sure.

I’m a very large man and in this scenario would probably be up front. If you tell me you’re a trained pilot, I’m going to step out of the way and ask you if you want me to bring you coffee. Being over six feet tall doesn’t mean your brain stops working.

“You don’t look like a pilot. Just sit down little lady, we’ll finish saving your life”.

“But - but - I really am a pilot!”

More laughter

Big guys enter cockpit, remove dead flight crew, proceed to attempt to hand fly the airplane, and crash.
In reality, of course, we would have the luxury to time to allow such lengthy conversation, nor do I expect the discourse to be anywhere near as congenial. Don’t think people react that way? Heck, I’ve gotten the “you-don’t-look-like-a-pilot-I-don’t-believe-you-can-fly” reaction plenty of times in the past - including from people who have actually seen me land an airplane. I’ve recounted some of these episodes in past threads.

See, that’s part of the problem - folks who read the Dope might well have the tools to just barely give them a hope of survival in such a situation - but most folks don’t read the Dope, have very mistaken notions about aviation, and frankly would be unaware of the apalling depths of their own ignorance in these matters.
[/QUOTE]

[caligynephobia]

I did a little experiment a few months ago in a full-motion simulator for a jet similar to a Boeing 707.

I took:
Father-in-law of one of my crewmembers (a little big jet sim time, no flight time)
My dad (about five hours in gliders)
My wife (private pilot with about 100 small plane/Cessna hours) and
My brother (PPL w/ about 60 Cessna hours and 110 hours in small jets).

None of them had time in this type jet or sim. They sat in the left seat, I sat in the right (so definitely easier than talking someone down from the ground). I only talked to them (didn’t throw any switches, etc) and encouraged them to use the autopilot. Nobody wanted to keep the autopilot on for very long, so I talked them through setting up the flight director. Flight director is like a little airplane displayed on your attitude indicator screen that tells you where to go based on what you have it set up for - for instance level flight, a precision instrument approach, or a constant mach descent. You try to match the little attitude indicator airplane to the flight director airplane and it will keep you at altitude/on course/on glideslope/on speed. It makes hand-flying a big jet much easier.

Just talking them each through an approach and landing based on what I was seeing from the right seat (again, totally different from doing it from the ground). I was able to talk my buddy’s dad (sim only) down for a pretty rough, possibly survivable survivable landing; we also ran off the runway which in real life is bad. My dad did really well with the engines at idle (insert your glider jokes here) but had a rough landing - probably would have busted the gear, scraped some engines on the ground and run off the side of the runway. My wife (PPL) did better and was able to land the sim on the runway and stop it safely; her big transition was the slow control effectiveness and using a throttle lever instead of a panel mounted throttle knob (she did pretty well in a Beechjet simulator I took her in a couple years ago too though). Of the four, my little brother did the best of all - safe landing with the least amount of verbal input, perhaps because he’s used to faster approach speeds. The sluggish controls were his biggest problem.

My experience with the sim - it’s a little bit harder to land than the actual jet. Part of it is limitations on visual fidelity of depth cues; it’s good, but could be better. Also the sensory cues that come from full motion sims are not exactly the same as what you feel in an airplane; I think some elements of vertical axis acceleration are missing. After three weeks last summer of flying the sim and small single-engine planes only, I was landing the jet like a champ.

Not a very big sample and zero control but here’s what I suppose from this based on doing it without autopilot and with very timely verbal assistance - the private pilot has a better chance than someone with little or no flight time. Time in like-type sims helps. Time in other jet types probably helps.

[don_t_ask]

@Mr. Blue Sky

That was Flight 232.

I saw a special about it last week on Dateline(?). What a freaking horror show that must have been for the passengers.

That special is on Aussie TV right now. How about the coincidence that one of the passengers is a flight instructor who trains pilots in emergencies like that.

[Broomstick]

@RickJay

I’m a very large man and in this scenario would probably be up front. If you tell me you’re a trained pilot, I’m going to step out of the way and ask you if you want me to bring you coffee. Being over six feet tall doesn’t mean your brain stops working.

In that case, sir, you are welcome on my airplane any time, and should the occassion ever arise on a commercial flight to rush the Bad Guys rest assured I will be behind you Big Strong Guys, ready to render whatever assistance I am able.

By the way - I prefer tea, no lemon

@Shrinking Violet

Just how long would it take a plane to fly straight down into the ground from, say, 30,000 ft? I was under the impression it would take minutes …

Controlled descent, yes - about a half an hour from 30,000 feet. However, we wouldn’t be talking about a controlled anything. If the nose points straight down, particularly with the engines running, the acceleration would be fearsome. In such circumstances, you could easily break Mach 1 on the way down. So the question is - can regain control prior to either impact or the airplane coming apart under either the stress of the airspeed or the manuvers you use to pull up from the dive? A dive can become unrecoverable because there is simply not enough room between you and the ground to restore the airplane to straight and level flight. It’s strictly a matter of time and distance, and if you come up short on either one it’s gone to hurt real bad.