# Could it be Creation AND Evolution? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 13, 2001, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-creation-and-evolution/72371 "2001-07-13T15:07:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![SolarPhallusMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/76d3ee/32.png) [@SolarPhallusMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SolarPhallusMan)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2001, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-creation-and-evolution/72371/1 "2001-07-13T15:07:18Z")
Dare I do this? Begin this thread? I’ve been putting it off, but, in this moment of insanity (it seems) I am beginning it. Only civil responses are welcome. This is assuming the Bible is truth and man’s interpreation is incorrect. Ok, the story: Raised as a Christain, thus Creationist. Grew up, Did some thinking, Did some doubting, More thinking, not quite at conclusion. The question: WAS The world created in 7 days? Why do I think this? God created the world in seven DAYS. DAYS. WHy do we believe that this means 24 hours? Does it not say in the Bible (some where)that a 100 years to us is a second to God? Doesn’t the Bible also say that God operates according to his own time? Couldn’t that mean his own version of time? If so, then how do we know that those seven DAYS mean 24 hours? OR, could days mean STAGES? But since man (who created time)lives according to time, it was assumed that DAY meant 24 hours because that is how WE see it. We are not God. The timing of day and night (rotation of the earth, etc) could have fallen into the pattern it is now later as the earth evolved BEFORE man was born. A “day” may not have always been the 24 hours that we know it to be today. If this is so, then how do we know how much time elapsed between each stage? Could it have been thousands of years (OUR years). WHy do creationists believe that the world is as old as it is? Because man was supposedly created 6 days after? I believe that man is as old as creationists say, but the world could very well be older. Obviously, I am not a theologian, and welcome any input. Please, though, try to avoid branching off into a creation vs evolution discussion as that will never been resolved. I’m sure there is more that I am forgetting to add, so I may add more rationale later in this discussion. (I’ll regret this later, I’m sure. These “dicussions” always turn bloody.) ---
**Author:** ![Kaje](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f04885/32.png) [@Kaje](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaje)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2001, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-creation-and-evolution/72371/2 "2001-07-13T15:29:58Z")
“But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.” - Peter 3:8 there’s 2 ways to take this…1) One “God Day” is exactly 1000 years or 2) God works on his own clock I agree with you, there’s no reason to say that the earth must be exactly 6000 years old or whatever just because somebody did math and said: 6 days \* 1000 years = 6000 years… It would be reasonable to say that God created the earth and man and all that just on a totally different clock than creationists would think… however one problem with the creation story in the Bible is the order of creation… I don’t really wanna quote genesis ad nauseum… but it says that various parts of the earth were created, THEN the moon and stars, which would be at odds with modern science which would say the rest of the universe was around before earth came to be Mind you, I’m not Christian, but was raised as one and have tried to research Christianity as well as other religions ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2001, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-creation-and-evolution/72371/3 "2001-07-13T16:08:22Z")
No answers here, of course, but perhaps I can help clarify some of the issues. First, you say you were: > [@](#): > > Raised as a Christain, thus Creationist Well, that doesn’t necessarily follow. It depends largely on your definition of creationist. See, there are lots of different types of creationism. There’s “YEC,” Young Earth Creationism, usually predicated upon a strict literal interpretation of the Bible, which asserts that the Earth cannot be more that 6000 years old or so. There’s “OEC”, Old Earth Creationism, which holds that the Earth can be millions of years old, usually basing the argument on the verse form Peter which **Kaje** kindly pointed out. And there are various forms of “guided evolution” and “intelligent design” which basically assume that science is correct for the most part, but God was required to either set things in motion, keep things going, or both. In this loose confederation, you might also encounted those who fully accept evolution as fact–except where _Homo sapiens_ is concerned (the idea being that sentience cannot derive from nature, only from God). There are really very few people who believe that the universe is only 6000 years old. They just happen to be increasingly vocal. Try the [talk.origins archive](http://www.talkorigins.org) for more in-depth analysis of the various forms of creationism. I also highly recommend Robert Pennock’s [_Tower of Babel : The Evidence Against the New Creationism_](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0262661659/qid=995040395/sr=2-1/ref=aps_sr_b_1_1/103-4251023-4499825) for a discussion of the types of creationist thought and the scientific opposition to them. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2001, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-creation-and-evolution/72371/4 "2001-07-13T16:16:47Z")
Without trying to be mean, **SolarPhallusMan** , your reconciliation of seven days with an older Earth is not a new concept. Others have formulated the smae basic thought (the “OEC” contingent that **andros** mentioned). Unfortunately, the facts that can be discerned argue against any of those interpretations. Humanity is certainly much older than 6,000 years, so their is an immediate problem. Personally, while I like the poetry of Genesis 1, I actually more enjoy the earthy story of Genesis 2 wherein God makes man _first_ (out of dirt) then lets man name all the creatures. And, as **andros** has pointed out, Christianity does not _equal_ Creationist. There are a lot of us Christians who fall into various categories of Theistic Evolutionists who believe that God is the Author of All, but that the process used in Creation is the one that is outlined by actual scientific investigation and analysis. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2001, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-creation-and-evolution/72371/5 "2001-07-13T16:17:29Z")
The Pope for instance (usually, although not always, regarded as a Christian) believes in evolution via the guiding hand of God and the Genesis creation story as allegory. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2001, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-creation-and-evolution/72371/6 "2001-07-13T16:21:12Z")
This topic was discussed recently but I can’t find it on the search, grrrrr. the topic was called ‘Can we believe…’ (I think) ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2001, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-creation-and-evolution/72371/7 "2001-07-13T16:21:25Z")
Well, as I see it, you got basically two choices: 1. Take the Bible literally - Down this path lies insanity, and meaningless games trying to ascribe a literal meaning to passages that are simply untrue or were not meant to be taken literally. 2. Realize that the Bible contains metaphors and parables, and literallness has nothing to do with validity. Jesus was rather fond of parables, and acoording to Christian dogma Jesus is God, so this might be a clue that God is fond of parabolic(new usage) expression. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2001, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-creation-and-evolution/72371/8 "2001-07-13T16:26:28Z")
[here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=75173) And my favourite quote from that thread: > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Dignan_ > **A Christian that realizes that the Bible is full of parables and stories and is not a science book wouldn’t have any problem believing in both creation and evolution.** ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2001, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-creation-and-evolution/72371/9 "2001-07-13T16:36:13Z")
The OP in this thread sounds remarkably similar to the [old-Earth creationism spouted by the Jehovah’s Witnesses](http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/jw-book.html). ---
**Author:** ![SolarPhallusMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/76d3ee/32.png) [@SolarPhallusMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SolarPhallusMan)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2001, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-creation-and-evolution/72371/10 "2001-07-13T16:43:47Z")
Hmm. Yes, I thought there must be an official name for this belief. To clarify, I was raised to believe in YEC. bah. In my life I have met VERY FEW Christians who are OEC. Hmm. I find that weird on it’s own…Anyway… In the 1st paragraph i said “This is assuming the Bible is truth and man’s interpretation is incorrect.” I know the Bible is full of parables. Who is man to interpret these? Geez. There’s so much I don’t know… And so… Let this thread continue, for I pleased with it’s progress… ---
**Author:** ![Kaje](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f04885/32.png) [@Kaje](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaje)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2001, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-creation-and-evolution/72371/11 "2001-07-13T16:53:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SolarPhallusMan \* > **Who is man to interpret these?** presumably that’s why Christians were given them… If it were just God’s little note to himself, his diary, then chances are in his omnipotence he would have been able to keep it up in heaven and away from the prying eyes of his creations… Of course you still run into problems with this view…which is why i personally say its a bunch of bullshit ---
**Author:** ![SolarPhallusMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/76d3ee/32.png) [@SolarPhallusMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SolarPhallusMan)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2001, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-creation-and-evolution/72371/12 "2001-07-13T17:19:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kaje \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by SolarPhallusMan \* > > **Who is man to interpret these?** > > presumably that’s why Christians were given them… If it were just God’s little note to himself, his diary, then chances are in his omnipotence he would have been able to keep it up in heaven and away from the prying eyes of his creations… Of course you still run into problems with this view…which is why i personally say its a bunch of bullshit \*\* Ok…What I meant by that was: _Obviously_ the Bible is for man. That is a given. The Bible states that several times. What I mean, is the man can not understand God fully. The Bible also says that. So, if we can not understand God fully, we obviously are not going ot be able to figure everything out (ie: what is parable and what is to be taken literally). Man gives himself too much credit for “figuring out” the Bible. Sure, we can _try_, but, again, **Who is man to decipher God?** That is not meant to be a cop-out conclusion to this, though. I am just explaining what I meant by that comment…bah. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2001, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-creation-and-evolution/72371/13 "2001-07-13T17:38:50Z")
> [@](#): > > What I mean, is the man can not understand God fully. The Bible also says that. Where does it say that? > [@](#): > > So, if we can not understand God fully, we obviously are not going ot be able to figure everything out (ie: what is parable and what is to be taken literally). Man gives himself too much credit for “figuring out” the Bible. Sure, we can try, but, again, Who is man to decipher God? What “man” are you referring to giving himself to much credit? Are you merely suggesting that ignorance is bliss? ---
**Author:** ![SolarPhallusMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/76d3ee/32.png) [@SolarPhallusMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SolarPhallusMan)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2001, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-creation-and-evolution/72371/14 "2001-07-13T17:52:44Z")
oh geez… I said: Assuming the Bible is truth and man’s interpreation is wrong… That’s what I mean by man (human kind in general-that much is obvious!) giving himself too much credit. I don’t know where in the Bible it says that man can not fully understand God, I just know it says that. I can look for it if you like…As i said, I am not a theologian by any means. Igornance is bliss? Fuck, no! I’m saying the opposite! I’m saying that _since we can not fully trust man’s interpreation of God, we should question and look for what we feel is true!_ Damn! Ignorance is not bliss! ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2001, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-creation-and-evolution/72371/15 "2001-07-13T18:36:55Z")
> [@](#): > > . I don’t know where in the Bible it says that man can not fully understand God, I just know it says that. It also says to send me all your money. It seems to me then, from your arguments that if we are to seek knowledge, and both the Bible and God are fundamentally unknowable, than we should turn aside from both God and the Bible and commit ourselves to more earthly matters where discovery and knowledge is possible. ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2001, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-creation-and-evolution/72371/16 "2001-07-13T20:19:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SolarPhallusMan \* > \*\*Ok…What I meant by that was: > _Obviously_ the Bible is for man. That is a given. The Bible states that several times. What I mean, is the man can not understand God fully. The Bible also says that. So, if we can not understand God fully, we obviously are not going ot be able to figure everything out (ie: what is parable and what is to be taken literally). Man gives himself too much credit for “figuring out” the Bible. Sure, we can _try_, but, again, **Who is man to decipher God?** > > That is not meant to be a cop-out conclusion to this, though. I am just explaining what I meant by that comment…bah. > \*\* The problem I have with the “who is man to understand God?” argument is that the Bible is, unfortunately, rather cryptic at times. Which parts are parables and which parts are literal? There are two separate creation stories, as **tomndebb** points out, both of which cannot be literally true. So where does that leave anyone who tries to make sense of it all? If Man is not supposed to at least _try_ to understand what God meant,and by extension, to understand God Himself, then one would think that perhaps God should have been a little clearer about what He really meant, yes? Of course, this also assumes that the Bible is the literal Word of God, and not, in actuality, Man’s interpretation of that word. Which brings us to creationism. The way I see it, we have two basic choices: 1. We are allowed to think for ourselves, regardless what stories the Bible may tell, or 1. We are not. We must accept the Bible as literal Truth in this case. Now, if one accepts option #2, then we can only have Special Creation (i.e., the notion that _all_ organisms are specifically created “as is”, and that no natural change takes place - any “novelties” are specifically created as such), or, at best, YEC. Abandon all hope, ye who enter. If one accepts option #1, however, then we can reasonably conclude that OEC and/or natural evolution are responsible for the natural world as we see it today. Now, depending on exactly how O the E is, if one accepts OEC, there will still be difficulties in meshing theory with observation. Beyond just the science of evolution, how far back one is willing to go when stating that the earth was created will have a significant effect on our understanding of geology, astronomy, and cosmology, to name but a few other “historical sciences”. The “ideal” case for OEC is to simply coincide the creation event with the time at which most non-creationists agree the earth was formed (by “ideal” here, I mean the one which will most easily mesh with current scientific understanding, resulting in the fewest _ad hoc_ explanations for observable phenomena) - around 4 bya. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2001, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-creation-and-evolution/72371/17 "2001-07-13T20:55:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SolarPhallusMan \* > **…I don’t know where in the Bible it says that man can not fully understand God, I just know it says that. I can look for it if you like…** Maybe Isaiah 55vv8-9 ? (NIV): > [@](#): > > “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are my ways your ways,” declares the Lord. > “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts higher than your thoughts” ---
**Author:** ![JonF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/cab0a1/32.png) [@JonF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JonF)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2001, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-creation-and-evolution/72371/18 "2001-07-14T19:38:12Z")
For a non-Jehovah’s-Witness Old Earth Creationist point of view, see Dr. Hugh Ross’s site: [Reasons to Believe](http://www.reasons.org/) Dr. Ross is extremely knowledgable in physics and astronomy … he knows too much to be able to believe in a young Universe or Earth, and has politely castigated many YEC’s for their ignorance (see [Hugh Ross and Duane Gish Debate](http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/gish-ross-debate.html)). Unfortunately, he’s ignorant of biology, geology, and paleontology, and is therefore able to talk himself into a young human race. Some discussion of his beliefs is available at [Review of The Genesis Question, By Hugh Ross](http://www.glenn.morton.btinternet.co.uk/rossrev.htm). ---
**Author:** ![DifferentChild](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@DifferentChild](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DifferentChild)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2001, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-creation-and-evolution/72371/19 "2001-07-16T08:45:57Z")
it does say in the bible that God has no perception of time. in heaven there is no time it’s just forever. but it also said that He (God) gave us time as a gift. so that means we did not creat time it has always been there. so by God saying he created the world is 7 days i think he means 7 days as we know it so that we can see how long it really took. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2001, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-creation-and-evolution/72371/20 "2001-07-16T16:09:03Z")
Er . . . huh? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-creation-and-evolution/72371.md?page=2)