# Could it be.... Loch Nessmoking gun? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 7, 2003, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-loch-nessmoking-gun/167084 "2003-04-07T15:53:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2003, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-loch-nessmoking-gun/167084/1 "2003-04-07T15:53:07Z")
[Or, did we plant it?](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20030407/ts_nm/iraq_usa_cache_dc_1) (In intermediate range missiles and in barrels). ---
**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2003, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-loch-nessmoking-gun/167084/2 "2003-04-07T15:59:58Z")
And [this](http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/07/international/worldspecial/07CND-CHEM.html) stuff, too? > [@](#): > > This morning, the team tested a 20-gallon drum, and came to the conclusion that it tested positive for sarin, a nerve gas and tabun, another nerve gas. > A 55-gallon oil drum came up positive for mustard gas. I don’t think so. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Green\_Feather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8e7dd6/32.png) [@The\_Green\_Feather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Green_Feather)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2003, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-loch-nessmoking-gun/167084/3 "2003-04-07T16:18:21Z")
The story in the OP is an unconfirmed report from an un-named ‘top official’. I think we need to wait for something a little more solid. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2003, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-loch-nessmoking-gun/167084/4 "2003-04-07T16:19:10Z")
Loch Ness? **MLS** , I guess I don’t understand what your point is. Do you think planting is unlikely because there’s more than one thing, or what? I’m not saying anything was planted, but if they wanted to couldn’t they plant multiple things? ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2003, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-loch-nessmoking-gun/167084/5 "2003-04-07T16:44:43Z")
“Loch Ness” It was a reference to the length of this debate. Stupid, to be sure. If I had it to do over again I’d just say, “Nerve gas in Iraqi missiles and drums: false alarm (again) or smoking gun?” Planted? In freshly captured Iraqi missiles? There is the issue of chain of custody. This applies in a court of law or a court of public opinion. Either there is evidence the US planted large amounts of proscribed agents–_if, again, they’ve been found_–or we are dealings with the speculations of irrational critics. Why irrational? Claiming, in advance, that any evidence is planted is an act of loud desperation. I’m not surprised that those who invested so much credibility in arguing against Iraqi possession of WMD would want to question every story. Given some of the preliminary speculation on many such stories, _I don’t blame anyone for adopting a wait-and-see approach_. However, this situation has many badges of authenticity that other stories did not have. _Allegedly_, found in a weapon, tested positive, near barrels of something… Of course, a poppy seed bagel also makes you a junkie… That’s a reference to scientific false positives. The “nerve gas” could be pesticide residue (or something). ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2003, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-loch-nessmoking-gun/167084/6 "2003-04-07T16:47:47Z")
One can of sarin still would not constitute a threat to the US or jsutify an invasion. Even if we find a stockpile Nuclearly equipped ICBM’s, the invasion is still illegal. Busting into your neighbor’s house and killing him is still not justified if you then search his house and find an assault rifle. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2003, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-loch-nessmoking-gun/167084/7 "2003-04-07T17:04:56Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Beagle \* > \*\* > I’m not surprised that those who invested so much credibility in arguing against Iraqi possession of WMD would want to question every story._\* I don’t think many people are arguing that they are sure there are no WMDs; I thought the majority of anti-war people were of **D the C** ’s mind, that there wasn’t enough evidence of WMDs to justify an invasion. That is not the same saying there are none. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2003, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-loch-nessmoking-gun/167084/8 "2003-04-07T17:21:05Z")
…that was quick… [Pesticide](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/afp/20030407/wl_afp/iraq_war_wmd&e=1&ncid=1480) ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2003, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-loch-nessmoking-gun/167084/9 "2003-04-07T17:22:55Z")
Or _yet another_ example of the pro-war camp crying **Wolfowitz** over every little pestcide dump in Iraq ? This is what, the tenth or eleventh such claim. Maybe it’ll work out this time, maybe not. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2003, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-loch-nessmoking-gun/167084/10 "2003-04-07T17:28:26Z")
What I want to know is, how did this stuff get into missiles–media/military credibility-wise? Are we to believe that the Iraqis have intermediate range missiles loaded with pesticides? Are they preparing for war with those termites that build the really big mounds? ---
**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2003, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-loch-nessmoking-gun/167084/11 "2003-04-07T17:33:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Revtim \* > \*\*Loch Ness? > > **MLS** , I guess I don’t understand what your point is. Do you think planting is unlikely because there’s more than one thing, or what? > > I’m not saying anything was planted, but if they wanted to couldn’t they plant multiple things? \*\* I am sure it was not planted. From the reports I’ve read, there’s a lot of it. And because there are LOADED missiles. AFAIK, mustard gas is not generally used as a pesticide. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2003, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-loch-nessmoking-gun/167084/12 "2003-04-07T17:35:49Z")
Maybe they were decoys. Maybe they were hoping the pesticide attacks would look like chemical attacks to coalition troops and force them to wear those chemical suits in 100% plus weather. ---
**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2003, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-loch-nessmoking-gun/167084/13 "2003-04-07T17:41:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Beagle \* > \*\*…that was quick… > > [Pesticide](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/afp/20030407/wl_afp/iraq_war_wmd&e=1&ncid=1480) \*\* [nerve gas](http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/news/news-iraq-usa-cache.html) And don’t forget the [missiles](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A47645-2003Apr7.html). One does not _ordinarily_ put pesticides in missiles. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2003, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-loch-nessmoking-gun/167084/14 "2003-04-07T17:53:19Z")
> [@](#): > > One does not ordinarily put pesticides in missiles. That would be dependent on one’s definition of “pest”. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2003, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-loch-nessmoking-gun/167084/15 "2003-04-07T18:08:34Z")
Note **Stinkpalm’s** [pit thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=175619) on the subject. Given that a search in the Pit will find about half a dozen identical threads about similar incidents in the last three weeks, all of which have turned out to be not so much smoking guns as smoke and mirrors, I’ll wait and see. Missiles? Hard to say what’s happening at this point, but it’s possible that the missiles are being kept in an agricultural facility (I think that’s what NPR reported, that they were kept in an agricultural warehouse on a truck, so that the truck could drive out of the warehouse, fire the missiles, and drive back into the warehouse before radar locks on). If that’s the case, it’s possible that the same tests that mistook pesticides for nerve gas elsewhere were picking up pesticide residue from the warehouse on the missile heads. Wait and see. If they do indeed turn out to be WMD missiles, then the prowar folks can gloat over the fact that this illegal war, supported by deceitful, unethical means, will have a salubrious effect. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Sofa\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2003, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-loch-nessmoking-gun/167084/16 "2003-04-07T18:13:21Z")
So far, all the news sources I see are repeating that single NPR citation for the chemical-tipped missiles. Rumsfeld and his buddy are reticent to make any preliminary statements. “I takes days to get samples of things” to the labs which definitively test for such things. ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2003, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-loch-nessmoking-gun/167084/17 "2003-04-07T18:13:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*One can of sarin still would not constitute a threat to the US or jsutify an invasion. \*\* Tell that to the Japanese: [http://www.sma.org/smj/97june3.htm](http://www.sma.org/smj/97june3.htm) [http://www.terrorismanswers.com/weapons/sarin.html](http://www.terrorismanswers.com/weapons/sarin.html) Five _thousand_ people were affected by relatively impure Sarin poorly distributed. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2003, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-loch-nessmoking-gun/167084/18 "2003-04-07T18:28:28Z")
Am I mixing two different stories together? One, I think, is the Third Infantry story, now confirmed to be pesticides. Two, the 101st Airborne missile story you cite, I now think, is still viable–in that it has not yet been disproven. Correct me if I’m wrong. This is all breaking news. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2003, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-loch-nessmoking-gun/167084/19 "2003-04-07T18:36:19Z")
There are two stories being confused here – the “pesticide” bit is from a suspected site found late last week, while the NPR report is from this morning. Still, the continuance of folks to scream “smoking gun” at every little thing does get tedious after a while. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2003, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-loch-nessmoking-gun/167084/20 "2003-04-07T18:49:55Z")
“Every little thing,” like medium range missiles? I’m no warhead expert, but I’m thinking it is difficult to confuse a chemical warhead from a high explosive warhead if you know what to look for. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-loch-nessmoking-gun/167084.md?page=2)