# Could it be possible that homosexuals are really athesist **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 5, 2013, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225 "2013-06-05T17:35:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2013, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/181 "2013-06-08T02:45:45Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > And we’ve reached reductio ad absurdum. > What of you? You do not have a religious base for morality, so where do you stand on porn stars, prostitution and bestiality? What is your basis for behavior that is acceptable to society or to yourself? I hate this argument. I believe in G-d. I accept that some people do not. I generally trust these people to be guided by their consciences and their capacity for empathy. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2013, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/182 "2013-06-08T03:04:41Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > Paul was both, and admitted to being both. This caused him nothing but trouble. How do you tell when he is being one or the other? What evidence do you have that Paul really spoke for God? > [@](#): > > Salvation is through faith, not acts or deeds. I know many gay Christians who are apparently sincere in their faith (I say apparently, since I cannot know anyone’s heart but my own). The following is from the NT so it counts right? “19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. 20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.” James chapter 2 Or do you have another excuse? If so, what is it this time? > [@](#): > > The sex is morally reprehensible as well, but it cannot be taken as a factor separate from the lifestyle and consequences. Why would sex between consenting adults be morally reprehensible? Just cause the Bible says so? You have already described lots of reasons why we should not trust the Bible on other things, so why on this? ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2013, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/183 "2013-06-08T03:15:48Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > And we’ve reached reductio ad absurdum. It’s your religion and your reasoning. I agree it’s absurd. > [@](#): > > What of you? You do not have a religious base for morality, so where do you stand on porn stars, prostitution and bestiality? What is your basis for behavior that is acceptable to society or to yourself? I don’t have a problem with porn at all. As a libertarian I think prostitution should be legal. I haven’t given much thought to beastiality but if the animal isn’t harmed I don’t have any particular problem with it. Probably most animals would prefer it to being killed and eaten. Still that’s a tough one, so I’d be open to hear other reason based arguments. Certainly the perpetrator does not deserve to be put to death like the Bible says. You didn’t answer if you thought beastiality was still a sin or not since Jesus freed you from the law and OT laws in your opinion are no longer applicable. Is it still morally reprehensible? Can a person who openly engages in beastiality be ordained a Presbyterian minister? ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2013, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/184 "2013-06-08T03:19:35Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > What is your basis for behavior that is acceptable to society or to yourself? I forgot to answer this. I like call things good if they increase the well being of conscious creatures, bad if they decrease it. FYI, I borrowed that from Sam Harris. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2013, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/185 "2013-06-08T03:31:09Z")
Shouldn’t God, if he exists, be able to clarify this issue unambiguously? And he exists, but doesn’t care, why should we? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2013, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/186 "2013-06-08T03:58:04Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > Christianity is no more and no less illogical than any other large-scale cultural phenomenon. That’s nonsense. The majority of “large-scale cultural phenomenon” don’t make so many claims that are so logically inconsistent and contradictory to both physical law and known facts.\* Football or baseball stadiums for example don’t sell tickets to watch empty fields and insist that there’s _really_ a pair of teams there that no one but the faithful can see. \*And those that do tend to be shut down and the people behind it arrested for fraud - they weren’t smart enough to couch their fraud in religious terms. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2013, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/187 "2013-06-08T12:00:44Z")
[quote=“Kable, post:182, topic:660225”] How do you tell when he is being one or the other? What evidence do you have that Paul really spoke for God? [/UNQUOTE] The first question is too big to be discussed briefly. The existence of Christianity and the church is evidence for the second. [QUOTE] The following is from the NT so it counts right? “19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. 20 You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]? 21 Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e] and he was called God’s friend. 24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.” James chapter 2 Or do you have another excuse? If so, what is it this time? [/QUOTE/ No excuse. This is an argument within Christianity that dates back to the 1st Century, and is still undecided. It is certain, however, that James and Paul are in disagreement on what faith is. > [@](#): > > Why would sex between consenting adults be morally reprehensible? Just cause the Bible says so? You have already described lots of reasons why we should not trust the Bible on other things, so why on this? I was imprecise. Sex between consenting adults is not morally reprehensible, per se, IMHO. Exploiting sex is because it treats women and men as objects to be used for financial gain. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2013, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/188 "2013-06-08T12:12:20Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > It’s your religion and your reasoning. I agree it’s absurd. > I don’t have a problem with porn at all. As a libertarian I think prostitution should be legal. I haven’t given much thought to beastiality but if the animal isn’t harmed I don’t have any particular problem with it. Probably most animals would prefer it to being killed and eaten. Still that’s a tough one, so I’d be open to hear other reason based arguments. Certainly the perpetrator does not deserve to be put to death like the Bible says. > > You didn’t answer if you thought beastiality was still a sin or not since Jesus freed you from the law and OT laws in your opinion are no longer applicable. Is it still morally reprehensible? Can a person who openly engages in beastiality be ordained a Presbyterian minister? Last question first: no, because it’s illegal, and avowedly unrepentant criminals aren’t ordained by the Presbyterian church. Given the fact that sex with animals is a generator of STD’s, I’m certain it’s a bad idea. The word “sin” means error or mistake, so, yes, bestiality would qualify as a sin, and, yes, it’s morally reprehensible. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2013, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/189 "2013-06-08T12:17:29Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > I forgot to answer this. I like call things good if they increase the well being of conscious creatures, bad if they decrease it. FYI, I borrowed that from Sam Harris. And how does exploiting pornstars for money increase their well being? ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2013, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/190 "2013-06-08T12:26:21Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > The first question is too big to be discussed briefly. Do try. > [@](#): > > The existence of Christianity and the church is evidence for the second. OK, by that you must mean, “none whatsoever”, or “about the same amount of evidence that Mohammad was God’s only prophet?” > [@](#): > > No excuse. This is an argument within Christianity that dates back to the 1st Century, and is still undecided. It is certain, however, that James and Paul are in disagreement on what faith is. You seem pretty certain that Paul was right and James wrong. It must be rough for you Christians trying to follow such conflicting instructions. > [@](#): > > I was imprecise. Sex between consenting adults is not morally reprehensible, per se, IMHO. Exploiting sex is because it treats women and men as objects to be used for financial gain. So as a Christian you think fornication is just fine. You can be an open fornicator and still be ordained a minister. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2013, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/191 "2013-06-08T12:38:09Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > Last question first: no, because it’s illegal, and avowedly unrepentant criminals aren’t ordained by the Presbyterian church. Raping children does not seem to stop people from being ordained. Why different from animals? But just suppose for instance that it weren’t illegal, would you still think it’s morally reprehensible? I just looked it up and it’s only illegal in 37 states. Suppose you are in one of the 13 others. > [@](#): > > Given the fact that sex with animals is a generator of STD’s, I’m certain it’s a bad idea. You mean like sex in general? I imagine in both cases you could practice safe sex. > [@](#): > > The word “sin” means error or mistake, so, yes, bestiality would qualify as a sin, and, yes, it’s morally reprehensible. Are you basing that on the Bible? As a Christian, how does that differ from a man laying with a man as if he were a woman? ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2013, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/192 "2013-06-08T12:41:55Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > And how does exploiting pornstars for money increase their well being? When you say “exploiting” do you really mean paying? That’s easy, the porn star gets money and they can use that money to purchase food, clothing, shelter and various luxuries. That money increases their well being. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2013, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/193 "2013-06-08T12:52:44Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > Last question first: no, because it’s illegal, and avowedly unrepentant criminals aren’t ordained by the Presbyterian church. I just looked it up and it seems homosexuality used to be illegal under anti-sodomy laws, the same that used to be used against bestiality. Not sure if you have any comments on that but it seems to me that the Presbyterian church is more a follower rather than a leader when it comes to what’s good and moral. It just seems they are a little confused as to whether they want to follow their God’s law or man’s law. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2013, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/194 "2013-06-08T15:12:09Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > Given the fact that sex with animals is a generator of STD’s, I’m certain it’s a bad idea. It is? Have you got a cite for that? ---
**Author:** ![Molesworth\_2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9dc877/32.png) [@Molesworth\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Molesworth_2)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2013, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/195 "2013-06-08T15:13:57Z")
The bible also says that people who work on the sabbath should be put to death. (Exodus 31:15) So unless the OP has shot up a 7/11 on a sunday, he/she is not a real christian. PS I find it quite interesting that “Sabbath” passes the SDMB spell check but “sabbath” doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2013, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/196 "2013-06-08T16:32:36Z")
And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto San Diego, Remove hence to Alaska; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2013, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/197 "2013-06-08T16:36:37Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > That just sounds like a bunch of Christians deciding they don’t want to live like Jews so they interpreted away most of the Bible. > [@Dr.Drake](#): > > Yes, this is pretty much what happened—except (1) many early Christians (all or nearly all, initially) WERE Jews, and (2) it started before the New Testament was written and thus before the Christian Bible came into being. That’s pretty much exactly why “Christians” are no longer a subset of “Jews,” though in Jesus’s lifetime they were. > [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > The concept that Gentile Christians are not obligated to follow the Jewish Law is a major theme of Paul’s letters, the book of Acts, and the General Letters. It wasn’t decided overnight and it ended up being the reason Christianity didn’t view itself as being merely a form of Judaism. For an example see my post #118 link to Acts, chapter 15, where Paul argues with some of the original Apostles about the matter and a compromise is arrived at by which the new converts are _waived most but NOT absolutely ALL prohibitions and ritual requirements_ under the Old Law. Like it was mentioned earlier, part of the process of the new teaching transforming from a Jewish Messianist cult into a “Universal” religion. From the beginning the “fulfillment” is subject to interpretation. Even in the universe of the Gospels, you find rabbis and priests debating with Jesus “What does it mean where the Scripture says X, Y, Z” or the authors saying “This event is the one the Prophet was talking about when he said A, B, C”. Straight out every-word-means-only-exactly-the-plain-text literalism was not even around then – if you were a scribe you had to copy every single word exactly and not add or subtract anything, sure, _but_ then afterward you _could argue what it meant._ ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Quatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bc8723/32.png) [@Mr\_Quatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Quatro)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2013, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/198 "2013-06-08T16:57:09Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto San Diego, Remove hence to Alaska; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you. Funny, funny .. actually all He really said was the word “Portobello” I thought it was in Alaska, turns out that He wants the fleet to move to Hawaii. Doesn’t that sound better, plus a lot warmer … Portobello, Hawaii > [@](#): > > The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who is blessed forever, knows that I am not lying. > 2 Co 11:31 Now back to those poor mis-guided souls who think it’s okay to sin (resist the will of God) and get away with it on judgement day. Thou shall not judge means good or bad … discerning is learning/judging is trudging ---
**Author:** ![Molesworth\_2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9dc877/32.png) [@Molesworth\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Molesworth_2)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2013, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/199 "2013-06-08T17:42:59Z")
> [@Mr\_Quatro](#): > > Thou shall not judge means good or bad … discerning is learning/judging is trudging Remind me again why you started this thread… Seriously, how can you not see the inherent and blatant hypocrisy of what you’re saying? ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2013, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/200 "2013-06-08T17:52:15Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > It is? Have you got a cite for that? Well, at least some questions are answered readily: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoophilia\_and\_health](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoophilia_and_health). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225.md?page=11)