# Could it be possible that homosexuals are really athesist **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 5, 2013, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225 "2013-06-05T17:35:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2013, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/201 "2013-06-08T18:06:11Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Do try. > > OK, by that you must mean, “none whatsoever”, or “about the same amount of evidence that Mohammad was God’s only prophet?” > > You seem pretty certain that Paul was right and James wrong. It must be rough for you Christians trying to follow such conflicting instructions. > > So as a Christian you think fornication is just fine. You can be an open fornicator and still be ordained a minister. Do you have any point to make except that you find religion silly and offensive? Can you see no benefit to individuals having faith? I have repeatedly stated that the history of Christian philosophy and theology is not one where everyone is of the same opinion, and at every turn you mock and reduce each point to an outrageous claim. I understand that the Bible is an easy target, and the lack of accord in comprehending scriptures makes it a simple matter for people to point and laugh, and quote scripture against scripture. But can you see no benefit to a system which, at its heart, is one of people caring for themselves and other people, however that system may be distorted by egos and personalities? ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Quatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bc8723/32.png) [@Mr\_Quatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Quatro)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2013, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/202 "2013-06-08T18:14:36Z")
> [@Molesworth\_2](#): > > Remind me again why you started this thread… > > Seriously, how can you not see the inherent and blatant hypocrisy of what you’re saying? I started the thread to show that anyone that sins, especially sexual sin, is just slapping God and His word in the face. Is it judging you to show you that you are lost … ? Jesus said to love one another even if he is your enemy … Jesus said, in regards to believing in him, that we are to hate our own family, mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters if they did not believe in Him. I’m sure he was talking to the Jews who are till this day very hard of hearing. Jesus them said that those that follow him are his brothers and sisters and mothers and fathers. St Paul said to hate what is evil and to cling to what is good, perhaps he means in our own soul, before we turn to gay bashing, uh? I don’t feel guilty bringing up the fact that to knowingly sin is the same as being an atheist. Is that judging? No it’s loving you … men and women have to decide for themselves what is right and what is wrong. The Word of God and the indwelling precense of the Holy Spirit is there to help you if you ask Him in He won’t deny your request. St Matthew 7:7-8 Ask and you shall receive, seek and you shall find, knock and the door shall open Anyone who ask shall receive, anyone who seeks shall find, and anyone that knocks the door shall open. and if you think you can sin and still get in read this scripture … it is for people that use the name of jesus to cast out demons, to do many good works and to prophecy St Matthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness! ’ ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2013, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/203 "2013-06-08T18:34:25Z")
Yes yes, I’m sure your invisible friend hates gays, and that you believe so has nothing to do with your own personal prejudices. And your invisible friend, out of His infinite Love, will consign people to an eternity of unendurable torment and agony, if they have consenting sex with other adults, but it’s the ‘wrong’ kind of sex. Makes perfect sense. It’s a wonder you haven’t swayed more people to your cause. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2013, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/204 "2013-06-08T18:47:52Z")
> [@Mr\_Quatro](#): > > Is that judging? No it’s loving you … Speaking as someone who’s been loved by a few men in his day: you’re doing it wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2013, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/205 "2013-06-08T19:22:15Z")
> [@Mr\_Quatro](#): > > I started the thread to show that anyone that sins, especially sexual sin, is just slapping God and His word in the face. Don’t blame us. God’s really into that stuff. Does the Bible tell you what His Safeword is? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2013, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/206 "2013-06-08T19:28:46Z")
> [@Mr\_Quatro](#): > > Jesus said, in regards to believing in him, that we are to hate our own family, mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters if they did not believe in Him. I’m sure he was talking to the Jews who are till this day very hard of hearing. Huh? ---
**Author:** ![Molesworth\_2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9dc877/32.png) [@Molesworth\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Molesworth_2)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2013, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/207 "2013-06-08T19:55:46Z")
> [@Mr\_Quatro](#): > > I started the thread to show that anyone that sins, especially sexual sin, is just slapping God and His word in the face. Which “god” are you talking about here? Thor? Zeus? Ra? I hear this “Yahweh” character is quite popular nowadays. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2013, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/208 "2013-06-08T20:16:49Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Huh? Just some old-style Christian Anti-Semitism. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2013, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/209 "2013-06-08T20:22:31Z")
D’oh, missed the edit window. But: I do have to say it’s always amused me… the idea some Christians have that God is a liar and a cheat, who gave the Jews a covenant for all time, and then said “nuh unh, you didn’t say no backsiez!” ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2013, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/210 "2013-06-08T20:28:54Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > Do you have any point to make except that you find religion silly and offensive? Perhaps not religion in general, but Christianity certainly is. Watered down Presbyterian style Christianity seems only marginally more tolerant but a great deal more hypocritical. > [@](#): > > Can you see no benefit to individuals having faith? You mean faith like absolute belief without/contrary to evidence? No, honestly I can see no benefit. > [@](#): > > I have repeatedly stated that the history of Christian philosophy and theology is not one where everyone is of the same opinion, and at every turn you mock and reduce each point to an outrageous claim. You have already agreed that the Bible does say “in context” that those who have homosexual sex should be put to death. You’re only caveat was that this point is debatable and that God maybe doesn’t teach that anymore. I’m sorry but I think killing someone for their sexual orientation was as bad 2000 years ago as it is now. Call me crazy but I guess my secular morals are a little more absolute than those relative to the times Bible based morals that you Christians espouse. > [@](#): > > I understand that the Bible is an easy target, and the lack of accord in comprehending scriptures makes it a simple matter for people to point and laugh, and quote scripture against scripture. Lack of comprehending? You already admitted I was comprehending Leviticus 20:13 exactly right. > [@](#): > > But can you see no benefit to a system which, at its heart, is one of people caring for themselves and other people, however that system may be distorted by egos and personalities? No, I seen no benefit from a system that, at it’s heart, brainwashes children into believing ridiculous claims before they are old enough to think about any of it logically, and makes people feel guilty over basic emotions, promotes prejudice, all with the threat of eternal torture with fire. OK so I answered all your questions. Would you be kind enough to get back to mine? ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2013, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/211 "2013-06-08T20:30:10Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Just some old-style Christian Anti-Semitism. Well, it is Biblical. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2013, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/212 "2013-06-08T23:34:42Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > D’oh, missed the edit window. But: I do have to say it’s always amused me… the idea some Christians have that God is a liar and a cheat, who gave the Jews a covenant for all time, and then said “nuh unh, you didn’t say no backsiez!” And they can do the same to the Catholic Church, holding a vast Protestant protest, throwing out the Pope and his authority, and re-writing the rules… Yet they get really mad when another group, like Islam, or the Mormons, comes along and play the same “yank the rug from under their feet” game to them. If God can change his mind once, why not twice? Or more? ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2013, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/213 "2013-06-09T01:59:29Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Raping children does not seem to stop people from being ordained. Why different from animals? But just suppose for instance that it weren’t illegal, would you still think it’s morally reprehensible? I just looked it up and it’s only illegal in 37 states. Suppose you are in one of the 13 others. > > You mean like sex in general? I imagine in both cases you could practice safe sex. > > Are you basing that on the Bible? As a Christian, how does that differ from a man laying with a man as if he were a woman? Since you did take something of a stab at answering mine: 1. Raping children does keep you from being ordained in the Presbyterian Church. 2. Bestiality is morally reprehensible. It was forbidden in Leviticus, and it’s such an obvious sin that there was no need to discuss it in the NT because the issue wasn’t controversial. 3. Sex in general does not carry nearly the risk of STD’s that sex with animals have. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoophilia\_and\_health](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoophilia_and_health) It’s a bad idea. Since you have stated your point that you find Christianity to be reproachable, what do you expect to gain from further conversation? Discussing the merits of bestiality seems like a non-issue to me. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2013, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/214 "2013-06-09T02:42:02Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > 1. Bestiality is morally reprehensible. It was forbidden in Leviticus, and it’s such an obvious sin that there was no need to discuss it in the NT because the issue wasn’t controversial. Good to know. From the perspective of Jesus how is bestiality different from homosexuality? Like Bestiality, homosexuality was forbidden in Leviticus, and is such and obvious sin that there was no need to discuss it in the NT, because the issue wasn’t controversial. > [@](#): > > 1. Sex in general does not carry nearly the risk of STD’s that sex with animals have. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoophilia\_and\_health](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoophilia_and_health) > It’s a bad idea. How about unprotected man on man homosexual sex in general. You know the kind of sex that the Bible also calls an abomination. > [@](#): > > Since you have stated your point that you find Christianity to be reproachable, what do you expect to gain from further conversation? Discussing the merits of bestiality seems like a non-issue to me. I’m hoping you might realize your hypocritical stance and change your ways. ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2013, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/215 "2013-06-09T03:05:06Z")
> [@](#): > > How about unprotected man on man homosexual sex in general. In biblical times, that was safer for all concerned than heterovagsex, since pregnancy was so dangerous. But look, it’s not a sin to be gay. It’s a sin to have gay sex. Or eat lobster. So don’t do those things. And if you have to impregnate your sister in law, don’t pull out. But being gay is ok- Jesus loves fags. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2013, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/216 "2013-06-09T03:27:42Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > I like call things good if they increase the well being of conscious creatures, bad if they decrease it. Great. Now please provide a precise, consistent and comprehensive definition of “well being”, along with full infallible criteria for objectively resolving individual differences of opinion about whether any given action increases well being or not. Then, maybe, you’ll be entitled to sneer at modern theists who are seriously trying to rework for modern use the ancient codes of morality that have shaped the bedrock ethical assumptions of every one of us living in modern societies. That takes a little more work than just coming up with a glib and childish one-liner definition of morality and patting themselves on the back for having transcended old-fashioned prejudices. Sheesh. I’m a lifelong atheist myself, but I’d rather listen to thoughtful theistic discussions of religious issues than silly, smug, self-righteous atheistic attempts at anti-theist “gotchas” any day. > [@Kable](#): > > I’m hoping you might realize your hypocritical stance and change your ways. Yeah, because tacitly free-riding on historically religious-based societal moral codes while bragging about having a moral code untainted by religion is _such_ a shining example of non-hypocrisy. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2013, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/217 "2013-06-09T04:08:17Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Yeah, because tacitly free-riding on historically religious-based societal moral codes while bragging about having a moral code untainted by religion is _such_ a shining example of non-hypocrisy. Religion stealing the credit for preexisting secular moral principles like not stealing or killing doesn’t make our moral codes “based on religion”. The parts of our historical moral codes that _are_ based on religion are characteristically tyrannical and destructive; “thou shalt have no other gods before me”, “thou shalt not suffer a witch to live” and such. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2013, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/218 "2013-06-09T05:47:36Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Great. Now please provide a precise, consistent and comprehensive definition of “well being”, along with full infallible criteria for objectively resolving individual differences of opinion about whether any given action increases well being or not. Why would I need to do all that? This should get you started though: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/sTKf5cCm-9g/maxresdefault.jpg "CFI-NYC | Sam Harris: The Moral Landscape") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTKf5cCm-9g) > [@](#): > > Then, maybe, you’ll be entitled to sneer at modern theists who are seriously trying to rework for modern use the ancient codes of morality that have shaped the bedrock ethical assumptions of every one of us living in modern societies. The Bible says that gay people are abominations and should be put to death. I feel entitled to sneer at that right now, thank you very much. And I feel entitled to sneer at modern theists who try and tell me that “just maybe” God doesn’t think we should kill homosexuals anymore like He used to and “just maybe” when Paul talked about homosexual sex being bad in the NT he was referring to gay prostitutes, and “just maybe” God won’t torture you forever for being gay. > [@](#): > > That takes a little more work than just coming up with a glib and childish one-liner definition of morality and patting themselves on the back for having transcended old-fashioned prejudices. Glib and childish? Here’s Harris defending his glib one liner among philosophers at ASU: https://www.youtube.com/embed/qtH3Q54T-M8?feature=oembed&wmode=opaque Here he is defending his glib, childish, one liner against a professional liberal Christian debater: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/yqaHXKLRKzg/hqdefault.jpg "The God Debate II: Harris vs. Craig") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqaHXKLRKzg) > [@](#): > > Sheesh. I’m a lifelong atheist myself, but I’d rather listen to thoughtful theistic discussions of religious issues than silly, smug, self-righteous atheistic attempts at anti-theist “gotchas” any day. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are just ignorant regarding all the thought that went into that one liner I gave. > [@](#): > > Yeah, because tacitly free-riding on historically religious-based societal moral codes while bragging about having a moral code untainted by religion is _such_ a shining example of non-hypocrisy. Der Trihs answered this better than I could. As a life long atheist, I’m a bit disappointed that you didn’t know better. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2013, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/219 "2013-06-09T05:52:39Z")
> [@aNewLeaf](#): > > But look, it’s not a sin to be gay. Are you sure? Jesus said if a person looks on another with lust, they have committed adultery in their heart, and that’s bad. I can only imagine Jesus wouldn’t think it good for a man to look on another man with lust in his heart. ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2013, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/220 "2013-06-09T10:57:01Z")
Looking with lust is the same as doing it, whether you lust for a man or woman. Same exact sin no matter who you lust for. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225.md?page=12)