# Could it be possible that homosexuals are really athesist **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 5, 2013, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225 "2013-06-05T17:35:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2013, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/221 "2013-06-09T11:37:03Z")
> [@aNewLeaf](#): > > Looking with lust is the same as doing it, whether you lust for a man or woman. > Same exact sin no matter who you lust for. Then you may as well go through with it and get the full benefit of sinning since you don’t get credit for resisting. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2013, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/222 "2013-06-09T13:24:12Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Religion stealing the credit for preexisting secular moral principles like not stealing or killing doesn’t make our moral codes “based on religion”. The idea that moral principles like not stealing or killing were somehow originally “secular” and “preexisted” religious thought of any kind is sheer wishful speculation. We can’t know for certain what the origins of the earliest moral codes in preliterate human societies were, but certainly all the records we have of ancient human moral codes show them firmly embedded in societies where religious beliefs of some kind are well established. You can’t realistically disentangle the two. Postulating some kind of prelapsarian prehistorical past where human beings were naturally, instinctively moral without any of that nasty supernatural religious thinking being involved is just an atheist fairytale. Mind you, I maintain that atheists are indeed perfectly capable of being moral without believing in any kind of god or any other supernatural being. But that doesn’t mean that what we consider our personal morality isn’t largely based on a historical and cultural societal construct that’s inextricably entwined with the history of religious thought. > [@Kable](#): > > I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are just ignorant regarding all the thought that went into that one liner I gave. Nice try. Still waiting for that precise, consistent and comprehensive definition of “well being”, along with full infallible criteria for objectively resolving individual differences of opinion about whether any given action increases well being or not. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2013, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/223 "2013-06-09T13:33:24Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Good to know. From the perspective of Jesus how is bestiality different from homosexuality? Like Bestiality, homosexuality was forbidden in Leviticus, and is such and obvious sin that there was no need to discuss it in the NT, because the issue wasn’t controversial. Jesus himself isn’t quoted as saying anything about either. The Greek in 2 Thessalonians that does refer to homosexuals uses terms found in other ancient Greek writings that refers specifically to male prostitutes. From the standard perspective of Christians over the centuries: sin is sin; if it harms you or your neighbor, or prevents you from having a deeper relationship with God, it’s a sin. > [@](#): > > How about unprotected man on man homosexual sex in general. You know the kind of sex that the Bible also calls an abomination. See the above. As I’ve mentioned the Presbyterians have been having long discussions about whether this a cultural bias or an inherent sin for 30 years. The jury is still out. > [@](#): > > I’m hoping you might realize your hypocritical stance and change your ways. Thank you very much for caring. If I hadn’t had religious experiences myself, I would be an atheist. I dislike woo, mistrust miracles, and am skeptical of spirituality in all its forms. But I have had a brush or two with the divine, so I cannot dismiss the Bible and faith as being a form of truth not covered by science. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2013, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/224 "2013-06-09T13:42:40Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > The idea that moral principles like not stealing or killing were somehow originally “secular” and “preexisted” religious thought of any kind is sheer wishful speculation. Hardly. Both are very obvious examples of self interest. I expect they existed in some form before humans invented language, much less religion. And religion makes people _less_ moral, not more. It wouldn’t come up with such rules unless they were _forced_ on it from outside, just as the norm even today when it comes or advancements in the morality of religion. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2013, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/225 "2013-06-09T13:47:57Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Hardly. Both are very obvious examples of self interest. I expect they existed in some form before humans invented language, much less religion. What you “expect” is not in any way historical evidence. It is and remains, as I said, wishful speculation. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2013, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/226 "2013-06-09T16:51:50Z")
> [@Mr\_Quatro](#): > > I started the thread to show that anyone that sins, especially sexual sin, is just slapping God and His word in the face. You haven’t showed anything. You made a statement and haven’t backed it up, and because you believe it’s true you’re assuming everyone else will agree as soon as they hear it. They won’t. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2013, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/227 "2013-06-09T17:45:23Z")
> [@Mr\_Quatro](#): > > I started the thread to show that anyone that sins, especially sexual sin, is just slapping God and His word in the face. > [@Marley23](#): > > You haven’t showed anything. You made a statement and haven’t backed it up, and because you believe it’s true you’re assuming everyone else will agree as soon as they hear it. They won’t. In addition to this—why “_especially_ sexual sin”? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2013, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/228 "2013-06-09T17:59:11Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > D’oh, missed the edit window. But: I do have to say it’s always amused me… the idea some Christians have that God is a liar and a cheat, who gave the Jews a covenant for all time, and then said “nuh unh, you didn’t say no backsiez!” To be fair, God is a kind of a dishonest prick in the old testament too. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2013, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/229 "2013-06-09T18:26:20Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > In addition to this—why “_especially_ sexual sin”? Because “Those who restrain desire do so because theirs is weak enough to be restrained". Prissy, uptight, frigid folks seem to enjoy damning others for having a healthy interest in sex. It seems to be especially vexing when they discover that others aren’t eaten alive with shame or wracked with guilt when they become aroused. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2013, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/230 "2013-06-09T19:48:46Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Nice try. Still waiting for that precise, consistent and comprehensive definition of “well being”, along with full infallible criteria for objectively resolving individual differences of opinion about whether any given action increases well being or not. Really? You really think I need to outline an absolute and perfect system of objective morals in order for me to say that it is wrong to kill a homosexual. That’s like saying a physician shouldn’t advise people to stop smoking because he can’t cure every disease or come up with a consisten and comprehensive definition of health. You should really watch those videos, cause its obvious you haven’t. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2013, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/231 "2013-06-09T20:01:16Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > Jesus himself isn’t quoted as saying anything about either. Exactly, that’s my point, but yet you go on to maintain that bestiality is an abomination but homosexuality only used to be abomination but as of late maybe isn’t. > [@](#): > > The Greek in 2 Thessalonians that does refer to homosexuals uses terms found in other ancient Greek writings that refers specifically to male prostitutes. So what? Bestiality isn’t mentioned at all, so your reasoning should be that those who practice it are not sinning because they are free of the law, or not, just like the homosexuals are. > [@](#): > > From the standard perspective of Christians over the centuries: sin is sin; if it harms you or your neighbor, or prevents you from having a deeper relationship with God, it’s a sin. From the standard perspective of Christians over the centuries, homosexuality is sin, so I’m not sure what your point is. > [@](#): > > See the above. As I’ve mentioned the Presbyterians have been having long discussions about whether this a cultural bias or an inherent sin for 30 years. The jury is still out. Great, and maybe in another 30 years you’ll figure it out. However if you conclude it isn’t sin, you will be contradicting the Bible. Myself, I’ll say it isn’t sin, right here and now, and I don’t care that it contradicts the Bible. > [@](#): > > Thank you very much for caring. If I hadn’t had religious experiences myself, I would be an atheist. I dislike woo, mistrust miracles, and am skeptical of spirituality in all its forms. But I have had a brush or two with the divine, so I cannot dismiss the Bible and faith as being a form of truth not covered by science. Please share the details of your religious experiences. Exactly what happened? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2013, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/232 "2013-06-09T20:09:14Z")
Everybody who is not **Kable** , can we quit engaging him / her? He / she is clearly not interested in understanding anyone else’s perspective, or gaining anything other than an all-or-nothing understanding of how religion works. To **Kable** : Yes, the Bible is stupid. Christians are stupid. Everybody but you is really stupid, and we’re all (Christians, non-Christians, gays, non-gays) very, very sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2013, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/233 "2013-06-09T20:19:50Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Please share the details of your religious experiences. Exactly what happened? Nothing that would make any difference to you, I’m afraid. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2013, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/234 "2013-06-09T20:20:51Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > Everybody who is not **Kable** , can we quit engaging him / her? He / she is clearly not interested in understanding anyone else’s perspective, or gaining anything other than an all-or-nothing understanding of how religion works. > > To **Kable** : Yes, the Bible is stupid. Christians are stupid. Everybody but you is really stupid, and we’re all (Christians, non-Christians, gays, non-gays) very, very sorry. Sad to say, you’re probably right. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2013, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/235 "2013-06-09T20:30:38Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > Nothing that would make any difference to you, I’m afraid. Please do share. If not me, maybe it will make a difference to someone else, and the Bible says you should share the reasons for the hope that is in your heart to anyone that asks. 1 Peter 3:15. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2013, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/236 "2013-06-09T20:36:51Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > Everybody who is not **Kable** , can we quit engaging him / her? He / she is clearly not interested in understanding anyone else’s perspective, or gaining anything other than an all-or-nothing understanding of how religion works. Yeah? What do you think I missed? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2013, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/237 "2013-06-09T20:40:54Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Please do share. If not me, maybe it will make a difference to someone else, and the Bible says you should share the reasons for the hope that is in your heart to anyone that asks. Please do not share in this thread. If anyone has a need or desire to witness to their beliefs, they are perfectly welcome to open a new thread to do so. This thread is already careening from side to side, about to jump the tracks. We do not need any more sidebars that could hijack the thread. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2013, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/238 "2013-06-09T21:14:09Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Please do not share in this thread. > > If anyone has a need or desire to witness to their beliefs, they are perfectly welcome to open a new thread to do so. This thread is already careening from side to side, about to jump the tracks. We do not need any more sidebars that could hijack the thread. > > [/Moderating] OK. [Brushes with the divine? - Great Debates - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=693379) ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Quatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bc8723/32.png) [@Mr\_Quatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Quatro)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/239 "2013-06-10T15:28:54Z")
I remember attending a church in Orange County many years ago back in 94 called Embassy Christian with Roberts Liardon as the pastor. The church was a pentecostal church, meaning that they believe in the gifts of the Spirit. I left for San Diego around 1999., but after I left the pastor was caught having a male to male sexual relantionship (see how nice I am being) with the youth pastor. He confessed to having a relationship in 2001:[http://bibleman.fr.yuku.com/topic/145](http://bibleman.fr.yuku.com/topic/145) > [@](#): > > Liardon said: “As a minister of the gospel, I realize my moral failure has been inappropriate and wrong. I have asked God’s > forgiveness, and for the past month have sought professional counseling and other help. I ask anyone affected by my actions to forgive me and to pray for both my spiritual and physical recovery.” The church broke up and Pastor Liardon moved to Florida … he still has a ministry mostly in England. Pastor Lairdon was a very strong man. We are all different, as I look around the room at my own church it is easy to see that we are all different. As I look around on the internet or christian broadcasting, it is easy to see that we are all different. While attending his church I heard a young lady give a Word of wisdom. She stood with arms outstreached cried out … helps explain the inner workings of the Holy spirit. \>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\> “Oh little children how often I have wished for you to come unto me like a hen has her little chicks come and hide under her wings, but nay you run to and froth.” “One says this and one says that” “You think that when you die you go to heaven”? “Nay says the Lord … it is not you that does anything, but it is I” “It is I that returns to heaven from which I came” “If you can only believe in me then it is your personality that I take with me” \>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\>\> When you invite the Holy Spirit, Jesus, the Lord out God into your heart something supernatural happens and you never remain the same. I hope I didn’t break any rules … ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/240 "2013-06-10T15:30:47Z")
> [@Mr\_Quatro](#): > > The church was a pentecostal church, meaning that they believe in the gifts of the Spirit. I left for San Diego around 1999., but after I left the pastor was caught having a male to male sexual relantionship (see how nice I am being) with the youth pastor. > > He confessed to having a relationship in 2001:[http://bibleman.fr.yuku.com/topic/145](http://bibleman.fr.yuku.com/topic/145) > > The church broke up and Pastor Liardon moved to Florida … he still has a ministry mostly in England. Pastor Lairdon was a very strong man So you think this minister is an atheist? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225.md?page=13)