# Could it be possible that homosexuals are really athesist **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 5, 2013, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225 "2013-06-05T17:35:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/121 "2013-06-07T02:18:28Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > Without rehashing a 30-year-long argument that I only know part of: yes, because, not being literalists, they view the Bible’s dicta against homosexuality as part of an ancient cultural bias on the part of human society, rather than a God-given edict. Sounds like a self serving interpretation. I thought the Bible was pretty clear on the topic, but then when I read words I expect they mean to some degree what they say. So God calling homosexual sex an abomination and saying you should be put to death for it is just a cultural bias? Is it the same with rape, adultery and murder? ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/122 "2013-06-07T02:24:27Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > Yep, and the fallible, mortal authors of the Christian Bible… Maybe it’s not wise trust such authors, regarding anything, when they attest to miracles or try to speak for gods. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Quatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bc8723/32.png) [@Mr\_Quatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Quatro)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/123 "2013-06-07T02:26:37Z")
Book of Romans is what God thinks not what man thinks, because these particular men and women did not worship God … He gave them over to the lust of their own bodies. Romans 1:22-32 all the way to Romans 2:3 The New King James Version 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. 24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them. Romans 2:1-3 2:1 Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. 2 But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. 3 And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/124 "2013-06-07T02:41:10Z")
> [@Mr\_Quatro](#): > > Book of Romans is what God thinks not what man thinks, because these particular men and women did not worship God … He gave them over to the lust of their own bodies. Are you under the impression that God sat down and penned the Greek text of Romans without using a single human being? Because that’s a pretty unusual argument. Most people are aware that the Bible, no matter how divinely inspired, was written down by fallible mortals who did, in fact, live within a particular cultural milieu and who had neither the mad time-travel skilzz nor divine omniscience to see much beyond the world they knew. ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/125 "2013-06-07T02:55:35Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Maybe it’s not wise trust such authors, regarding anything, when they attest to miracles or try to speak for gods. Preaching to the choir, buddy. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/126 "2013-06-07T03:01:30Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > Preaching to the choir, buddy. Maybe, but it seems to me that homosexual Christians want to have their cake and eat it too. I think if they want to be guilt and hellfire free they should put their superstition behind them rather than doing to contortions trying to make the Bible suit their own purposes. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Quatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bc8723/32.png) [@Mr\_Quatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Quatro)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/127 "2013-06-07T03:04:13Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > Are you under the impression that God sat down and penned the Greek text of Romans without using a single human being? Because that’s a pretty unusual argument. Most people are aware that the Bible, no matter how divinely inspired, was written down by fallible mortals who did, in fact, live within a particular cultural milieu and who had neither the mad time-travel skilzz nor divine omniscience to see much beyond the world they knew. The body is dead without the spirit … the Holy Bible was written by men of old by the power of the Holy Spirit within them. God is a Spirit and they that worship Him must do so in Spirit and in truth. God has said “be Holy even as I am Holy” … before you mock and say things like “are you hollier than we are” I would have to say, “no”, but I believe the written word more than you do. The fear of God is the beginning of all knowledge … This does not mean to be afraid of God … it only means to respect him. Watch your anger, “be slow to anger” think before you speak ---
**Author:** ![Troppus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a587f6/32.png) [@Troppus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Troppus)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/128 "2013-06-07T03:17:40Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Maybe, but it seems to me that homosexual Christians want to have their cake and eat it too. I think if they want to be guilt and hellfire free they should put their superstition behind them rather than doing to contortions trying to make the Bible suit their own purposes. Long as they aren’t using it to justify the marginalization or condemnation of others based on race, creed, gender, or orientation, or to support legislation which hinders equal rights, it’s none of my business. But the OP crowing about sin and hell and whatnot ought to read and apply the Book in its totality to his own existence if he wants a leg to stand on. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/129 "2013-06-07T12:47:42Z")
This very type of ‘cafeteria’ Christianity, wherein one uses the word of the book to condemn others as horrid sinners, while at the same time ignoring those parts of the book that specifically command such judgement be left to God alone, will prove the very end of Christianity as a real power in the west, I believe. This behaviour, more than any bible edict on conservative sexual mores makes Christianity a joke in the eyes of more and more people every day. When Christians get to be both judgemental and cruel, while feeling pious and virtuous the whole charade is in it’s last days, I’d say. It’s laughably sad that people such as the OP, and his screed, are actually an object lesson of sorts, on why it needs to go! ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/130 "2013-06-07T13:19:15Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Sounds like a self serving interpretation. I thought the Bible was pretty clear on the topic, but then when I read words I expect they mean to some degree what they say. So God calling homosexual sex an abomination and saying you should be put to death for it is just a cultural bias? Is it the same with rape, adultery and murder? Yes, it is a self-serving interpretation. That’s why there’s been a thirty-year-long discussion, with arguments on both sides. There are many in the Presbyterian denomination who will never agree that homosexuality is anything but a sin, and that openly gay and lesbian persons should not be ordained. The More Light ministry is not universally accepted, and that’s why the discussion remains ongoing. As far as God calling homosexual sex an abomination, etc.: the Bible was written by people. Fallible people. I’m a liberal Christian and don’t believe in a literal, fundamentalist translation of the scriptures, and neither do most Christians. Fundamentalists are just louder, and therefore more noticeable. The passage in questions, as has been mentioned by others previously, is not that cut-and-dried. And no one I know of is calling for an embracing of rapists, adulterers or murderers. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/131 "2013-06-07T14:01:45Z")
> [@Troppus](#): > > Long as they aren’t using it to justify the marginalization or condemnation of others based on race, creed, gender, or orientation, or to support legislation which hinders equal rights, it’s none of my business. But the OP crowing about sin and hell and whatnot ought to read and apply the Book in its totality to his own existence if he wants a leg to stand on. They promote ignorance. Doesn’t that matter? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/132 "2013-06-07T14:10:31Z")
> [@Mr\_Quatro](#): > > The body is dead without the spirit … the Holy Bible was written by men of old by the power of the Holy Spirit within them. > > God is a Spirit and they that worship Him must do so in Spirit and in truth. > > God has said “be Holy even as I am Holy” … before you mock and say things like “are you hollier than we are” > > I would have to say, “no”, but I believe the written word more than you do. > > The fear of God is the beginning of all knowledge … > > This does not mean to be afraid of God … it only means to respect him. > > Watch your anger, “be slow to anger” think before you speak And how do you know any of that is true? Were you there? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/133 "2013-06-07T14:11:37Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And how do you know any of that is true? Were you there? “Was you dere, Charlie?” ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/134 "2013-06-07T14:16:39Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > Yes, it is a self-serving interpretation. That’s why there’s been a thirty-year-long discussion, with arguments on both sides. There are many in the Presbyterian denomination who will never agree that homosexuality is anything but a sin, and that openly gay and lesbian persons should not be ordained. Do you think open prostitutes and/or porn stars should be ordained? > [@](#): > > As far as God calling homosexual sex an abomination, etc.: the Bible was written by people. Fallible people. So most of the Bible is probably not true then? Even when it talks of eternal life or people rising from the dead then? Or do you think those other parts you like really are the word of God? > [@](#): > > I’m a liberal Christian… I suppose as a homosexual that’s what you must be. Still I think you would be happier and certainly more logically consistent if you just put your superstitious beliefs behind you rather than selfishly rationalizing away the parts you don’t like with under the guise of “contextual analysis” and “hermeneutics.” Because from where I’m sitting you really are promoting a religion that really does lead to just about all the prejudice homosexuals face in the past and today. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/135 "2013-06-07T14:20:32Z")
> [@Mr\_Quatro](#): > > “Lord Jesus, I am a sinner and there is nothing that I can do in or of myself to get to heaven” > > “I recognize the shed blood on the cross that you shed for me” > > “I ask you into my heart … please forgive me of my sins” > > “I wish to live my life for you” > > signed: \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ Read and signed-now who am I supposed to mail this monitor off to? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/136 "2013-06-07T14:25:05Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Read and signed-now who am I supposed to mail this monitor off to? You can put the monitor screen side down on a copier and and just mail the copy in. Keep the monitor for your records. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/137 "2013-06-07T14:30:33Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > You can put the monitor screen side down on a copier and and just mail the copy in. Keep the monitor for your records. Thank you. edited to add: Ummm…does anyone have the address and zip code, and do you think I should insure it? ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/138 "2013-06-07T14:36:38Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > The SOP you’re referring to is called “eisegesis”, reading into the scriptures what you want it to say. What’s with liberal Christians and all their fancy words that nobody knows what they mean? “Eisegisis” just means “cherry picking” right? > [@](#): > > The recommended procedure is “exegesis”, reading from the scriptures, preferably in the original languages (or as close as possible), and adding historical and cultural information to come to a conclusion as to its meaning. Let me guess. If you do proper “exegesis” and the Bible really does say something you don’t like and don’t want to believe, then you just pull out your “the Bible was written by fallible men” card, and carry on acting and believing just as you had. Right? ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/139 "2013-06-07T14:40:52Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Do you think open prostitutes and/or porn stars should be ordained? > So most of the Bible is probably not true then? Even when it talks of eternal life or people rising from the dead then? Or do you think those other parts you like really are the word of God? > I suppose as a homosexual that’s what you must be. Still I think you would be happier and certainly more logically consistent if you just put your superstitious beliefs behind you rather than selfishly rationalizing away the parts you don’t like with under the guise of “contextual analysis” and “hermeneutics.” Because from where I’m sitting you really are promoting a religion that really does lead to just about all the prejudice homosexuals face in the past and today. Firstly, I’m not a homosexual. No, of course I don’t think “open prostitutes and porn stars” should be ordained. The principles of biblical hermeneutics are there to guide Christians to a deeper understanding of the scriptures, starting with the scriptures rather than their own points of view (that’s the eisegesis/exegesis I mentioned before). And most of the Bible is true for the purposes for which it was written, but the scriptures were not written for scholars or scientists, but for farmers and laborers, and so, in a scientifically based society as ours is, they can only come off as superstitious. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225/140 "2013-06-07T14:45:28Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > What’s with liberal Christians and all their fancy words that nobody knows what they mean? “Eisegisis” just means “cherry picking” right? > Let me guess. If you do proper “exegesis” and the Bible really does say something you don’t like and don’t want to believe, then you just pull out your “the Bible was written by fallible men” card, and carry on acting and believing just as you had. Right? Every discipline creates its own terminology to prevent confusion. No, if you do proper exegesis, and you don’t like the results, then, if you are a conscientious scholar, you change your own beliefs to fit the facts. I do not have the same beliefs I began with 40 years back, because I’ve had to keep re-evaluating my view of the scriptures. The fact that the Bible was written by fallible men is just one factor that a diligent student has to consider. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-it-be-possible-that-homosexuals-are-really-athesist/660225.md?page=8)