# Could Lincoln Have Used Drones to Fight the Rebellion? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 23, 2013, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-lincoln-have-used-drones-to-fight-the-rebellion/659113 "2013-05-23T13:10:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2013, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-lincoln-have-used-drones-to-fight-the-rebellion/659113/41 "2013-06-05T10:30:35Z")
> [@handsomeharry](#): > > The USA troops were on CSA land. No, the American troops were on American land that the Confederates were claiming as their own. But the mere fact of making a claim is not sufficient to make the claim true. If Canada decided to claim Alaska on Thursday and send troops in on Friday and American troops and Canadian troops started fighting in Anchorage, would you claim that the Americans were the invaders? No, because the United States did not recognize the Canadian claim to Alaska so those American troops would be defending American land. Same thing in 1861. The Confederates might claim South Carolina was their territory but the United States didn’t recognize that claim. The American government still recognized not just Fort Sumter but all of South Carolina as American territory. So when Confederate troops attacked the troops in Fort Sumter they were attacking American troops on American territory. The Civil War couldn’t be an invasion because it was fought entirely within the United States. It wasn’t an attempt to extend American rule because no American troops were sent to Mexico or Canada or Cuba. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2013, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-lincoln-have-used-drones-to-fight-the-rebellion/659113/42 "2013-06-05T13:00:44Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Well, considering they were traitors in the first place who were determined to continue OWNING OTHER HUMAN BEINGS, I hardly feel particularly sorry for them. Wish we’d executed every general and Confederate government official instead of coddling them, though. If that’d been done, the U.S. might still be facing reprisal attacks from and military occupation of the former CSA, in a cycle of violence akin the Israel-Palestine conflict. Vengeance breeds vengeance. ---
**Author:** ![6079smithW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/6/db5fbb/32.png) [@6079smithW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/6079smithW)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2013, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-lincoln-have-used-drones-to-fight-the-rebellion/659113/43 "2013-06-05T16:08:12Z")
> [@handsomeharry](#): > > The revisionism is on your part, my friend. The South had seceded. The North invaded to resupply Fort Sumter, and the South fired. The first shot was fired by the South, true, but in response to an invasion from the North’s supply boats. “invasion” of supply boats? That aside, the Confederate Provisional Congress had already organized itself, and an army, in February 1861, a month before Lincoln was inaugurated. They proceeded to recruit the best West Point had to offer. After Sumter, the CSA invaded the New Mexico territories, Kentucky, and Maryland, and adopted a flag with 13 stars (not 11 - they set up their own legislatures for Missouri and Kentucky, and then tried to take both states with them although neither state ever actually seceded). The slave power was bent on expansion. After Lincoln’s election they perceived that expansion in the territories would be impossible within the context of the Union. That’s why they seceded. Point being, they didn’t secede to be “left alone.” That’s a post-war lie by the Christian White Southern Victim crowd, who invented the term “War of Northern Aggression,” and who continues to dominate political discourse in this country today with their tales of White Victimhood at the hands of the welfare queens, minorities and socialists. They always intended to wage a war of expansion. If their demands for territory were not met, then they’d have used their control of the Mississippi River to cut every state west of the Ohio off from their markets in New York, and then split the Union even further. Success of the CSA would have been the death of the Union, by design. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2013, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-lincoln-have-used-drones-to-fight-the-rebellion/659113/44 "2013-06-05T18:05:16Z")
> [@6079smithW](#): > > “invasion” of supply boats? > > That aside, the Confederate Provisional Congress had already organized itself, and an army, in February 1861, a month before Lincoln was inaugurated. They proceeded to recruit the best West Point had to offer. After Sumter, the CSA invaded the New Mexico territories, Kentucky, and Maryland, and adopted a flag with 13 stars (not 11 - they set up their own legislatures for Missouri and Kentucky, and then tried to take both states with them although neither state ever actually seceded). > > The slave power was bent on expansion. After Lincoln’s election they perceived that expansion in the territories would be impossible within the context of the Union. That’s why they seceded. > > Point being, they didn’t secede to be “left alone.” That’s a post-war lie by the Christian White Southern Victim crowd, who invented the term “War of Northern Aggression,” and who continues to dominate political discourse in this country today with their tales of White Victimhood at the hands of the welfare queens, minorities and socialists. > > They always intended to wage a war of expansion. If their demands for territory were not met, then they’d have used their control of the Mississippi River to cut every state west of the Ohio off from their markets in New York, and then split the Union even further. Success of the CSA would have been the death of the Union, by design. I’d like a cite for the plans for the war of expansion. “..continue to dominate political discourse today with their tales of White Victimhood”??? Give us a break. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2013, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-lincoln-have-used-drones-to-fight-the-rebellion/659113/45 "2013-06-05T18:27:10Z")
> [@handsomeharry](#): > > I’d like a cite for the plans for the war of expansion. It’s certainly true for Kentucky. The Commonwealth’s General Assembly passed a declaration of neutrality on May 20, 1861. Confederate forces were commanded by Major General Leonidas Polk to occupy Columbus, Kentucky, a strategic point. The Union counter-invaded. [Cite.](http://www.state-journal.com/spectrum/2011/01/22/the-gathering-storm-of-1861) Its neutrality violated, the General Assembly passed a resolution on September 7 1861 demanding the withdrawal of only the Confederates. [It read:](http://www.simmonsgames.com/research/authors/USWarDept/ORA/OR-S1-V04-C012U.html) > [@](#): > > An Act for the admission of the State of Kentucky into the Confederate States of America, as a member thereof. > > Whereas Kentucky has been invaded by the forces of the so-called Confederate States, and the commanders of the forces so invading the State have insolently prescribed the conditions upon which they will withdraw, thus insulting the dignity of the State by demanding terms to which Kentucky cannot listen without dishonor: > > Therefore, > > Resolved That the invaders must be expelled. > > Inasmuch as there are now in Kentucky Federal troops assembled for the purpose of preserving the tranquillity of the State and of defending and protecting the people of Kentucky la the peaceful enjoyment of their lives and property: It is > > Resolved That General Robert Anderson, a native Kentuckian, who has been appointed to the command of the Department of Cumberland, be requested to take instant command, with authority and power from this Commonwealth to call out a volunteer force in Kentucky for the purpose of repelling the invaders from our soil. > > Resolved, That, in using the means which duty and honor require shall be used to expel the invaders from the soil of Kentucky, no citizen shall be molested on account of his political opinions; that no citizen’s property shall be taken or confiscated because of such opinions, nor shall any slave be set free by any military commander and that all peaceable citizens who remain at home and attend to their private business, until legally called into the public service, as well as their families, are entitled to and shall receive the fullest protection of the government in the enjoyment of their lives, their liberties, and their property. > > Resolved That his excellency the governor of the Commonwealth of Kentucky be requested to give all the aid in his power to accomplish the end desired by these resolutions and that he issue his proclamation calling out the militia of the State, and that he place the same under the command of General Thomas L. Crittenden. > > Resolved, That the patriotism of every Kentuckian is invoked and is confidently relied upon to give active aid in the defense of the Commonwealth. Pro-Confederate Kentuckians formed an unelected, ineffective shadow government. The Congress of the CSA admitted Kentucky to the Confederacy [Dec. 10, 1861.](http://books.google.com/books?id=7XJKAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA346&lpg=PA346&dq=Kentucky+was+admitted+to+the+Confederacy+on+December+10,+1861&source=bl&ots=joqtAmhb-A&sig=51d_3HrrNJ0-Ir-jgc6Kfn3UzGw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=NoKvUYrEFOnGiwLKtYHIBw&ved=0CEwQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=Kentucky%20was%20admitted%20to%20the%20Confederacy%20on%20December%2010%2C%201861&f=false) As this was done on behalf of the unelected shadow government, it constituted an attempt at forcible annexation: > [@](#): > > The Congress of the Confederate States of America do enact, That the State of Kentucky be, and is hereby, admitted a member of the Confederate States of America, on an equal footing with the other States of this Confederacy. The bastard’s didn’t even call us a Commonwealth. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2013, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-lincoln-have-used-drones-to-fight-the-rebellion/659113/46 "2013-06-05T18:33:27Z")
Darn it, the line “An Act for the admission of the State of Kentucky into the Confederate States of America, as a member thereof” belongs with the second quote, not the first. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2013, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-lincoln-have-used-drones-to-fight-the-rebellion/659113/47 "2013-06-05T19:04:55Z")
Even if the CSA did own South Carolina, they still would be required to give back or pay for the fort that undoubtably belonged to the federal government. Instead, they fired upon it. They declared war on the what they considered the other country, and that country retaliated. It doesn’t matter which point of view you take, the CSA as a rebellion or second country. Military action against it was legal. And while I personally think hating long dead people is almost pathological, it takes guts to out yourself as the Civil War equivalent of a Holocaust denier on these boards. Especially when you’ve been here since 2001. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2013, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-lincoln-have-used-drones-to-fight-the-rebellion/659113/48 "2013-06-05T19:37:03Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > The president has the constitutional right to put down rebellions. Killing random people in Yemen without trial during peacetime is slightly different. What’s random about it? ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2013, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-lincoln-have-used-drones-to-fight-the-rebellion/659113/49 "2013-06-05T21:38:36Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > What’s random about it? The assertion (backed by at least some evidence) is that drone attacks aren’t exactly “clinical” or “precise”. Hence they cause a significant casualties among innocents in areas we’re not supposedly attacking. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2013, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-lincoln-have-used-drones-to-fight-the-rebellion/659113/50 "2013-06-05T22:43:53Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Even if the CSA did own South Carolina, they still would be required to give back or pay for the fort that undoubtably belonged to the federal government. Instead, they fired upon it. They declared war on the what they considered the other country, and that country retaliated. The Confederacy definitely wanted to have its cake and eat it too. They wanted to withdraw from the United States while at the same time asserting ownership of resources that belonged to the United States. The various military bases throughout the south were just one aspect. There was also a federal mint in New Orleans. It was full of gold that belonged to the United States government. When Louisiana withdrew from the United States, do you think it turned that American gold over to the United States? Of course not, they kept it all and declared it now belonged to the CSA. That was just pure theft. (They also stole the smaller gold depositories in Dahlonega, Georgia and Charlotte, North Carolina.) ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2013, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-lincoln-have-used-drones-to-fight-the-rebellion/659113/51 "2013-06-05T23:52:46Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > The various military bases throughout the south were just one aspect. There was also a federal mint in New Orleans. It was full of gold that belonged to the United States government. When Louisiana withdrew from the United States, do you think it turned that American gold over to the United States? Of course not, they kept it all and declared it now belonged to the CSA. That was just pure theft. (They also stole the smaller gold depositories in Dahlonega, Georgia and Charlotte, North Carolina.) And all the military hardware they could lay their hands on. However, this is a complicated subject, and matters tended to roll from a relatively small but extremely committed minority. How large that minority was remains a matter of some debate among historians, but what _isn’t_ debated is that for various reasons they were militant, fixated on grievances (mostly imagined), and that they did not themselves think the Confederacy would form without forcing the issue via bloodshed. They were likely correct; Jefferson Davis was very likely of that opinion. Sparking a Civil War was therefore deliberate, although the individuals in question definitely didn’t think the body-count would amount to even a thousandth part of what it actually did. In general, most Southerners, when put to a choice of siding with their neighbors and relatives against a northern government they disliked, chose the former. But they also frequently did so with a grimace, and did not find it terribly hard in practice to then functionally return to the Federal government once honor had been satisfied (and their territory conquered). ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-lincoln-have-used-drones-to-fight-the-rebellion/659113/52 "2013-06-06T04:53:49Z")
That was Lincoln’s biggest mistake in the early months of the crisis. He believed that the secessions were the work of a small minority of radical extremists and that the “silent majority” of Southerners were still pro-Union. So he figured if he could just draw things out for a while, the pro-Union majority would throw out the pro-secession extremists and voluntarily rejoin the United States. It took Lincoln a while to admit to himself that there was general support for the secessionist government and the South was not going to come back on its own. ---
**Author:** ![6079smithW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/6/db5fbb/32.png) [@6079smithW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/6079smithW)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-lincoln-have-used-drones-to-fight-the-rebellion/659113/53 "2013-06-06T12:00:49Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > The assertion (backed by at least some evidence) is that drone attacks aren’t exactly “clinical” or “precise”. Hence they cause a significant casualties among innocents in areas we’re not supposedly attacking. Sherman’s march to the sea wasn’t exactly clinical or precise either. Neither was the siege of Petersburg, or Sheridan’s 1864 Valley Campaign. ---
**Author:** ![6079smithW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/6/db5fbb/32.png) [@6079smithW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/6079smithW)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-lincoln-have-used-drones-to-fight-the-rebellion/659113/54 "2013-06-06T12:03:06Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > That was Lincoln’s biggest mistake in the early months of the crisis. He believed that the secessions were the work of a small minority of radical extremists and that the “silent majority” of Southerners were still pro-Union. So he figured if he could just draw things out for a while, the pro-Union majority would throw out the pro-secession extremists and voluntarily rejoin the United States. It took Lincoln a while to admit to himself that there was general support for the secessionist government and the South was not going to come back on its own. Convince himself, or convince the country? What you’re calling a mistake, I’d call the genius of his leadership. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-lincoln-have-used-drones-to-fight-the-rebellion/659113/55 "2013-06-06T15:23:55Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > The assertion (backed by at least some evidence) is that drone attacks aren’t exactly “clinical” or “precise”. Hence they cause a significant casualties among innocents in areas we’re not supposedly attacking. But they are decidedly not “random,” as was claimed. Also, drone strikes aren’t clinical or precise, compared to what? The tactics used in the civil war? Drone strikes cause significant casualties among innocents, compared to what? The civil war? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-lincoln-have-used-drones-to-fight-the-rebellion/659113/56 "2013-06-06T15:30:39Z")
OP’s title brings to mind some kind of mashup of a time traveling Abe Lincoln with the Star Wars universe. That is all. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-lincoln-have-used-drones-to-fight-the-rebellion/659113/57 "2013-06-06T15:31:53Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > OP’s title brings to mind some kind of mashup of a time traveling Abe Lincoln with the Star Wars universe. That is all. I wonder if Lincoln coined the phrase “I have a bad feeling about this” while dressing for the theater? ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-lincoln-have-used-drones-to-fight-the-rebellion/659113/58 "2013-06-06T18:19:39Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > I wonder if Lincoln coined the phrase “I have a bad feeling about this” while dressing for the theater? Yes. He had dreams, some of which he interpreted as omens, or, at least, something more than complete fiction. [cite](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln%27s_assassination#Lincoln.27s_nightmare) Shelby Foote also related a dream Lincoln said he had, of floating away to a bright (or brightly lit) land. I cannot provide a cite right this moment, my copy of vol. III is not at hand. I can get it later today, if you wish. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-lincoln-have-used-drones-to-fight-the-rebellion/659113/59 "2013-06-06T18:41:39Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > Yes. He had dreams, some of which he interpreted as omens, or, at least, something more than complete fiction. [cite](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln%27s_assassination#Lincoln.27s_nightmare) > > Shelby Foote also related a dream Lincoln said he had, of floating away to a bright (or brightly lit) land. I cannot provide a cite right this moment, my copy of vol. III is not at hand. I can get it later today, if you wish. No real need…my post was actually just a Star Wars joke. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-lincoln-have-used-drones-to-fight-the-rebellion/659113/60 "2013-06-06T18:55:44Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > No real need…my post was actually just a Star Wars joke. I knew that. I also saw irony, because yes, he did “have a bad feeling”. 🙂 Unfortunately, the force was “with” the other guy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-lincoln-have-used-drones-to-fight-the-rebellion/659113.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-lincoln-have-used-drones-to-fight-the-rebellion/659113.md?page=4)