# Could living in 3rd world squalor be an advantage in fighting Covid 19? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Quarantine Zone\ **Tags:** covid-quarantine\ **Created:** [April 7, 2020, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-living-in-3rd-world-squalor-be-an-advantage-in-fighting-covid-19/851299 "2020-04-07T19:47:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2020, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-living-in-3rd-world-squalor-be-an-advantage-in-fighting-covid-19/851299/21 "2020-04-08T03:11:44Z")
> [@KumarSanuBestEver](#): > > sure I am thinking 10 times the number of infected people as compared to the reported figure, but if you look at the death rate, India’s till now is 2-3% italy’s is what maybe 10%? maybe Indians recently got it and will die later on but till now it suggests there is more under counting in lot of other countries than there is in India… > India is doing very targeted testing and yet just 2% here coming out positive, that tells something, don’t you think? No, I don’t. Look, I understand why you’d want to cling to the idea that India might escape the worst of this. People everywhere are desperately clinging to the flimsiest reasons for hope. And the fact India’s population is so skewed toward young people (because the life expectancy is lower than the global average) may make it seem, at least at first, as though India will escape the worst of the virus. But that’s not the case. From a great _New Yorker_ [interview](https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/how-covid-19-will-hit-india) with Ramanan Laxminarayan, an epidemiologist and economist who directs the Center for Disease Dynamics, Economics, and Policy in Washington, D.C., and who is currently in New Delhi: > [@](#): > > India has a really weak surveillance system for reporting diseases even in the best of times, and forget about a crisis situation like right now. So we won’t actually get to observe rural deaths or rural cases, because if someone who is poor in a village is dying of respiratory distress it won’t record. It won’t show up in any sort of death statistic; only around a fifth of India’s deaths are actually certified and recorded. The remainder have no official cause of death. So we won’t even know what’s happening on the health side. That’s the start. > [@](#): > > But, certainly, the conditions for a rapid spread of the disease are all there in the urban areas. And, without question, it’s likely that it will just rip through the population, unless something fundamentally changes in the virus itself in India, for which we have no real evidence. > [@](#): > > And it is absolutely gut-wrenching to see what’s happening in the news stories. But, remember, the news stories are only reporting on what they can see in the urban areas. We have no idea about the rural distress, what’s happening out there, whether farmers are okay, whether people are eating, and so forth. So I suspect we have not seen the end of this lockdown story. India already has many infectious diseases, and, as the New Yorker article points out, those diseases don’t take a holiday just because COVID-19 is around. With resources focused on COVID, there’s the possibility one of the other diseases–TB, pneumonia, diarrhea–will go out of control. It’s a grim and dangerous situation. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2020, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-living-in-3rd-world-squalor-be-an-advantage-in-fighting-covid-19/851299/22 "2020-04-08T03:12:28Z")
> [@KumarSanuBestEver](#): > > , but if you look at the death rate, India’s till now is 2-3% italy’s is what maybe 10%? maybe Indians recently got it and will die later on but till now it suggests there is more under counting in lot of other countries than there is in India… Deaths are also being undercounted, possibly even more than total cases. For example, I understand most countries only count deaths of people who’ve died in hospitals. Or just of those people who’ve tested positive, and they rarely test people who died since they want to save the tests for living people. > [@](#): > > India is doing very targeted testing and yet just 2% here coming out positive, that tells something, don’t you think? Does ‘targeted testing’ mean only people who’ve been to a foreign country that has a high rate of coronavirus and anyone who they interact with? If so, it means they likely missed a lot of community cases. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2020, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-living-in-3rd-world-squalor-be-an-advantage-in-fighting-covid-19/851299/23 "2020-04-08T04:47:23Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > IANA clinician, but three possibilities come to mind, other than what the OP mentioned: > > 1. I’m wondering if a relatively smaller proportion of elderly third-world populations may be a factor, since the elderly seem to be at higher risk off acquiring severe symptoms. > > 2. Maybe people with very limited financial means are less likely to see a doctor and get their malady positively identified, especially if the symptoms are not life-threateningly severe. > > 3. Likewise, maybe more people dying at home, without having been tested for COVID-19 infection. Hard to tell from any of the data I have easy access to. Good answers. And it is not only the relatively small elderly population but the huge child population, which not only seems to get extremely mild disease but may be minimally contagious when they get disease, to a large degree acting the same as those who have resolved. Another factor _might_ be the more common use of [the BCG vaccine](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/03/health/coronavirus-bcg-vaccine.html) in “the developing world”. > [@](#): > > The Bacillus Calmette-Guerin vaccine is still widely used in the developing world, where scientists have found that it does more than prevent TB. The vaccine prevents infant deaths from a variety of causes, and sharply reduces the incidence of respiratory infections. > > The vaccine seems to “train” the immune system to recognize and respond to a variety of infections, including viruses, bacteria and parasites, experts say. There is little evidence yet that the vaccine will blunt infection with the coronavirus, but a series of clinical trials may answer the question in just months. > > On Monday, scientists in Melbourne, Australia, started administering the B.C.G. vaccine or a placebo to thousands of physicians, nurses, respiratory therapists and other health care workers — the first of several randomized controlled trials intended to test the vaccine’s effectiveness against the coronavirus. … > > … A recent analysis of the disparate toll the new coronavirus has taken on middle- and high-income countries found a correlation with B.C.G. policies, concluding that countries that did not implement or had abandoned universal B.C.G. vaccination have had more coronavirus infections per capita and higher death rates. (Low-income countries were excluded from the analysis because of unreliable Covid-19 reporting data and generally poor medical systems.) But yes it is hard enough to be always sure about what is and is not a COVID-19 caused death in New York City … in much of the developing world? Let’s just agree that it is harder yet, especially in real time. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2020, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-living-in-3rd-world-squalor-be-an-advantage-in-fighting-covid-19/851299/24 "2020-04-08T12:01:32Z")
Question: Does India have a high number of tourists and other visitors from China? ---
**Author:** ![elmwood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmwood/32/3060_2.png) [@elmwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elmwood)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2020, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-living-in-3rd-world-squalor-be-an-advantage-in-fighting-covid-19/851299/25 "2020-04-08T13:03:12Z")
“That which does not kill us makes us stronger?” I dunno. You have to _live_ to find out. Third world squalor in the 1800s led to cholera outbreaks. The high body count from those outbreaks led to modern civil engineering, urban planning, and public hygiene and sanitation. Decades later, environmental regulations further reduced the body count. Moving away from lead paint and gasoline saved lives, thanks to decreased lead poisoning, and [it could be a factor in dropping crime rates](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead%E2%80%93crime_hypothesis). ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2020, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-living-in-3rd-world-squalor-be-an-advantage-in-fighting-covid-19/851299/26 "2020-04-08T16:45:31Z")
**Urbanredneck** Please keep your horrible and frankly racist suppositions to yourself. The way infections work does not depend upon nationality, and the exponential rates of infection mean that it only takes one person to start it off and in the crowded unsanitary conditions found in third world nations are exactly the conditions for it to become rife. India has connections all around the world, any one of which could import and spread the virus - the idea that it is just a Chinese connection is misleading, dangerous and racist. Virus does not have nationality, and attempting to assign nationality in a thinly veiled racist slant is a slur on the intellectual capacity of the majority of posters here - and frankly you are spreading misinformation as surely as any virus spreads. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2020, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-living-in-3rd-world-squalor-be-an-advantage-in-fighting-covid-19/851299/27 "2020-04-08T16:48:27Z")
Based on history: Nope Historic losses to pandemics are double-digit percentiles. Covid-19 is single-digit or even fractional. People living in “squalor” are, effectively, just living the way that our ancestors did. We should expect to see a similar result to them as we have seen in history (minus intervention from the modern world). ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2020, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-living-in-3rd-world-squalor-be-an-advantage-in-fighting-covid-19/851299/28 "2020-04-08T23:09:33Z")
> [@casdave](#): > > **Urbanredneck** > > Please keep your horrible and frankly racist suppositions to yourself. > > The way infections work does not depend upon nationality, and the exponential rates of infection mean that it only takes one person to start it off and in the crowded unsanitary conditions found in third world nations are exactly the conditions for it to become rife. > > India has connections all around the world, any one of which could import and spread the virus - the idea that it is just a Chinese connection is misleading, dangerous and racist. Virus does not have nationality, and attempting to assign nationality in a thinly veiled racist slant is a slur on the intellectual capacity of the majority of posters here - and frankly you are spreading misinformation as surely as any virus spreads. Number 1 - China is a country. NOT a race. This disease didnt just pop out of nowhere. The virus came from China. A country, and country whether that be the US, Italy, or India, where alot of people visited from China between November and say March (when restrictions started) or if that countries citizens visited China and especially Wuhan, is a pretty good chance the virus came also. Discussing world trade and international connections is not racist. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2020, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-living-in-3rd-world-squalor-be-an-advantage-in-fighting-covid-19/851299/29 "2020-04-08T23:21:00Z")
> [@casdave](#): > > **Urbanredneck** > > Please keep your horrible and frankly racist suppositions to yourself. > > The way infections work does not depend upon nationality, and the exponential rates of infection mean that it only takes one person to start it off and in the crowded unsanitary conditions found in third world nations are exactly the conditions for it to become rife. > > India has connections all around the world, any one of which could import and spread the virus - the idea that it is just a Chinese connection is misleading, dangerous and racist. Virus does not have nationality, and attempting to assign nationality in a thinly veiled racist slant is a slur on the intellectual capacity of the majority of posters here - and frankly you are spreading misinformation as surely as any virus spreads. **Moderator Note** Dial back the accusations of racism. We can discuss the possible sources of the infection in a country without such accusations. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2020, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-living-in-3rd-world-squalor-be-an-advantage-in-fighting-covid-19/851299/30 "2020-04-09T02:14:33Z")
Someone already mentioned the bubonic plague killing serfs and peasants in droves in the Middle Ages. I would add Native Americans being virtually wiped out by European diseases, notably smallpox, a few centuries ago. So what seems to be happening is that living without modern sanitation might result in a population with higher immunity to the diseases they live with, since those without that immunity will have died off over time. But it doesn’t seem to do any good against foreign diseases. And it goes without saying that people who are malnourished, unprotected from the weather, or exhausted are more susceptible to any kind of disease. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2020, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-living-in-3rd-world-squalor-be-an-advantage-in-fighting-covid-19/851299/31 "2020-04-09T03:35:54Z")
> [@RioRico](#): > > I predict less developed and even nominally “modern” jurisdictions whose leaders ignore medical advice will explode soon. A city in Israel named [Bnei Brak](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bnei_Brak), “one of the poorest and most densely populated cities in Israel”, [has as much as 38% of its population infected](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-52149316). ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2020, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-living-in-3rd-world-squalor-be-an-advantage-in-fighting-covid-19/851299/32 "2020-04-09T10:21:14Z")
Do you really think that a Haredi ultra-Orthodox enclave Tel Aviv adjacent is part of a discussion about “3rd world squalor” and its impact on severity of COVID-19? And if the estimate about infection rate there is correct, relevant to the thread, what is the death rate compared to other populations? I can find a report of one elderly woman with other health conditions from there who died, but with a population of near 200K and 38% infected? For [Israel](https://www.timesofisrael.com/6-more-die-in-israel-from-coronavirus-bringing-death-toll-to-71/) overall - > [@](#): > > Almost all of those who have died from COVID-19 in Israel have been elderly and suffered from preexisting conditions, according to hospital officials. Interesting in the context of Israel to note the circumstance of the occupied territories. Per the [WHO](https://www.un.org/unispal/document/coronavirus-disease-2019-covid-19-who-update-17/). > [@](#): > > On 31 March 2020, the Ministry of Health (MoH) confirmed 1 new COVID-19 case in the West Bank and 3 in Gaza, on 1 April an additional 15 new cases were confirmed in the West Bank, the most cases confirmed in a single day since the beginning of the outbreak > The total number of cases in all oPt is 134, including 122 cases in West Bank and 12 in Gaza > To-date, the MoH has reported a total of 18 cases have recovered and one person had died > Most cases do not present clinical symptoms and none are critical. All new cases are under medical observation at designated health facilities. Contact tracing was initiated for all case Not “3rd world” either but lots of poverty and crowded conditions, especially Gaza (population of the OTs about 3 million). But a population pyramid with a very broad base and a small elderly population. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2020, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-living-in-3rd-world-squalor-be-an-advantage-in-fighting-covid-19/851299/33 "2020-04-09T14:58:11Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Do you really think that a Haredi ultra-Orthodox enclave Tel Aviv adjacent is part of a discussion about “3rd world squalor” and its impact on severity of COVID-19? No, but i really think that a Haredi ultra-Orthodox enclave Tel Aviv adjacent is part of “less developed and even nominally “modern” jurisdictions whose leaders ignore medical advice”, which is why I quoted that part, which you might have noted if you had read carefully. ---
**Author:** ![control-z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@control-z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/control-z)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2020, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-living-in-3rd-world-squalor-be-an-advantage-in-fighting-covid-19/851299/34 "2020-04-09T15:53:32Z")
Squalor is not going to help the overall population be healthy. But living in an area with less people has an intrinsic social distancing factor. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2020, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-living-in-3rd-world-squalor-be-an-advantage-in-fighting-covid-19/851299/35 "2020-04-09T16:38:45Z")
Despite their centuries back affectations the Haredi are modern not just nominally so. Their issues are the same as some Christian groups. Yes it belongs in a conversation about how some religious groups ignore guidance and may put the rest of us at risk. But while poor they do not live in squalor. Control-z usually these are densely packed populations. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2020, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-living-in-3rd-world-squalor-be-an-advantage-in-fighting-covid-19/851299/36 "2020-04-09T16:45:33Z")
> [@control-z](#): > > Squalor is not going to help the overall population be healthy. But living in an area with less people has an intrinsic social distancing factor. Norway has a low population density and isn’t “squalor”. India has a high population density and has a ton of squalor. The Philippines has a population density of 336/km[sup]2[/sup]. That’s somewhere between the population density of North Carolina and New York State and, similar to them, includes cities and towns. ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2020, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-living-in-3rd-world-squalor-be-an-advantage-in-fighting-covid-19/851299/37 "2020-04-09T19:01:06Z")
I think Ecuador meets the criteria for squalor and third world, at least in some parts. The situation there is atrocious and getting worse, says the [press](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/guayaquil-ecuador-coronavirus-death-toll-bodies-latin-america-a9456596.html) and my cleaning lady, who comes originally from there. Guayaquil is hell, and it is a mayor port with about 3 Million inhabitants, not a city high up in the cold Andes, so there goes the thesis that this will disappear “as if by miracle” with the warm weather. Very bad news. No, being poor, godforsaken and destitute is not a recipe for survival. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2020, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-living-in-3rd-world-squalor-be-an-advantage-in-fighting-covid-19/851299/38 "2020-04-09T21:01:39Z")
> [@elmwood](#): > > “That which does not kill us makes us stronger?” I dunno. You have to _live_ to find out. I’m worried this speculation is the first step in a plan that ends with poor people having their blood drained to make medicine for rich people. ---
**Author:** ![control-z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@control-z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/control-z)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2020, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-living-in-3rd-world-squalor-be-an-advantage-in-fighting-covid-19/851299/39 "2020-04-10T16:04:45Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Control-z usually these are densely packed populations. Usually but not always. My order of living preference: Low density, high standard of living Low density, squalor High density, high standard of living High density, squalor ---
**Author:** ![RioRico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f04885/32.png) [@RioRico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RioRico)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2020, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-living-in-3rd-world-squalor-be-an-advantage-in-fighting-covid-19/851299/40 "2020-04-10T21:49:48Z")
> [@control-z](#): > > Usually but not always. My order of living preference: > > Low density, high standard of living > Low density, squalor > High density, high standard of living > High density, squalor I prefer 1) high SOL, any density; 2) adequate SOL, any density; 99) squalor. I have lived in 1st and 3rd world varieties of squalor. Squalor sucks greatly. YMMV. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-living-in-3rd-world-squalor-be-an-advantage-in-fighting-covid-19/851299.md?page=1)