# Could means-testing of SSI and Medicare be pushed through? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 18, 2013, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-means-testing-of-ssi-and-medicare-be-pushed-through/671583 "2013-10-18T15:33:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-means-testing-of-ssi-and-medicare-be-pushed-through/671583/41 "2013-10-19T15:48:57Z")
It can’t be pushed through. Raising the cap is a massive tax hike on the well off that will dwarf the 3-4% tax hike Obama wanted on income taxes. Means testing is a backdoor method of turning medicare into a ‘program that white middle class people pay into and blacks, latinos and poor people take out of’, which will make it easier to destroy down the road. reforming our social safety net is not hard to do on paper. If you raise the tax rate for SS from 12.4% to about 13.2% and eliminate (or raise) the cap that keeps SS solvent until the 22nd century. If you reform health care to make it as efficient as every other wealthy nation that eliminates most of the debt from medicare and medicaid. Neither is politically possible anytime soon, but that would fix it. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-means-testing-of-ssi-and-medicare-be-pushed-through/671583/42 "2013-10-19T15:57:47Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Yet we take about 15% from those people with a regressive payroll tax to fund SS. Let them keep that 15% and use for their retirement. SS is a progressive system, the less you make the more of a ROI you get. Plus you only pay 7.45% of the taxes, your employer pays the other half. Find me an investment vehicle where 7.45% of (because lets be honest, employers are not going to match SS and medicare unless the government forces them too. Look at the absence of pensions and matching 401ks for most workers to see what happens when government force is taken out of the equation) your 40k a year income can lead to a stable pension and health insurance for your 60s, 70s and 80s and beyond if need be (something like 20% of people live to be 90 nowadays). Find a way to fund that on 3-4k a year of savings w/o relying on assumptions like 'the market will grow at 8% a year indefinitely. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-means-testing-of-ssi-and-medicare-be-pushed-through/671583/43 "2013-10-19T17:49:57Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > It’s not complicated. It’s especially uncomplicated if you ignore complexities. :rolleyes: That’s a perfect example of the lazy thinking that makes the Tea Party possible. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-means-testing-of-ssi-and-medicare-be-pushed-through/671583/44 "2013-10-19T18:24:28Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > You go out and get another job and keep putting in your 15%. It’s not complicated. You could hardly be more oblivious if you sealed yourself in an iron box for 30 years. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-means-testing-of-ssi-and-medicare-be-pushed-through/671583/45 "2013-10-19T19:30:34Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > [Absolutely false.](http://ssa-custhelp.ssa.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/240) That’s only half of the tax. The other half is hidden since it’s taken from the employer not the employee. But the whole amount is almost 15%. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-means-testing-of-ssi-and-medicare-be-pushed-through/671583/46 "2013-10-19T19:35:43Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > SS is a progressive system, the less you make the more of a ROI you get. Buffet and Gates pay a thousandth of a percent and someone flipping burgers pays almost 15%. Then Buffet and Gates get more out at the end. Sounds regressive to me. > [@](#): > > Find a way to fund that on 3-4k a year of savings w/o relying on assumptions like 'the market will grow at 8% a year indefinitely. But it does, over a long enough time period. That’s like saying “Find me a plane that flies without relying on gravity being 9.8 m/s”. I trust the market to continue to perform a lot more than I do the government to continue to honor SS payments at current levels. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-means-testing-of-ssi-and-medicare-be-pushed-through/671583/47 "2013-10-19T19:37:05Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > You could hardly be more oblivious if you sealed yourself in an iron box for 30 years. ETA: Nevermind. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-means-testing-of-ssi-and-medicare-be-pushed-through/671583/48 "2013-10-19T19:37:11Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > That’s only half of the tax. The other half is hidden since it’s taken from the employer not the employee. But the whole amount is almost 15%. You were making the point that the employee’s contribution would be the whole 15%. . ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-means-testing-of-ssi-and-medicare-be-pushed-through/671583/49 "2013-10-19T19:39:30Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Buffet and Gates pay a thousandth of a percent and someone flipping burgers pays almost 15%. No, the burger flipper pays 6.2%. That’s all that comes out of the paycheck. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-means-testing-of-ssi-and-medicare-be-pushed-through/671583/50 "2013-10-19T19:39:41Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > You were making the point that the employee’s contribution would be the whole 15%. > . It’s an accounting gimmick. You could change the law tomorrow that the entire 15% came out of the employer before showing up in the employees check. Or you could change it to show all in the employees check and have the entire amount come out there. It wouldn’t matter. The end result is the same. The check is reduced by 15%. The republicans have tried a few times to pass legislation that would accurately show what people really made before this hidden tax, but it really doesn’t matter. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-means-testing-of-ssi-and-medicare-be-pushed-through/671583/51 "2013-10-19T19:40:42Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > No, the burger flipper pays 6.2%. That’s all that comes out of the paycheck. The employer is very aware of what it costs them to employ the burger flipper. Believe me, they factor it in. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-means-testing-of-ssi-and-medicare-be-pushed-through/671583/52 "2013-10-19T19:44:01Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > You could hardly be more oblivious if you sealed yourself in an iron box for 30 years. BPC, you can’t insult other posters in Great Debates. If you feel you must do so, please do so in the BBQ Pit. That’s what it’s there for. Warning issued. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2013, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-means-testing-of-ssi-and-medicare-be-pushed-through/671583/53 "2013-10-19T20:06:19Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Yet we take about 15% from those people with a regressive payroll tax to fund SS. Let them keep that 15% and use for their retirement. > [@Debaser](#): > > It’s an accounting gimmick. You could change the law tomorrow that the entire 15% came out of the employer before showing up in the employees check. Or you could change it to show all in the employees check and have the entire amount come out there. It wouldn’t matter. The end result is the same. The check is reduced by 15%. > > The republicans have tried a few times to pass legislation that would accurately show what people really made before this hidden tax, but it really doesn’t matter. The 15% is not taken from the employees paycheck, only 6.2% with a separate amount to Medicare. 6.2% does not equal 15%. And no employer is going to raise a worker’s salary just to compensate for the 15% you think should be taken out. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2013, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-means-testing-of-ssi-and-medicare-be-pushed-through/671583/54 "2013-10-20T01:10:35Z")
The next post that implies that the target of the post is stupid or heartless or is expressing a stupid or heartless view is going to collect a Warning. If you can’t play nice, open a parallel thread in The BBQ Pit. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2013, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-means-testing-of-ssi-and-medicare-be-pushed-through/671583/55 "2013-10-20T04:15:24Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > Is it feasible? Well, the part that isn’t feasible is the part where the Republicans go for it. I’ve noticed a popular sentiment among the social security/Tea Party set is “keep the government out of health care and end entitlements- but don’t touch my Medicare and Social Security” with a variant of “don’t touch mine, but you can means test it for the people who aren’t collecting yet”. Any Republican who wants re-election is not going to want to alienate them. The whole premise of means testing is sadly disingenuous. I’m open to correction but it seems that a lot of people on the same side support both means testing (as budget hawks) and regressive taxation (as laissez-faire conservatives). To me the way it seems to add up is that they _do_ like the idea of taxing the rich, but only if they’re over retirement age. On the other hand, asking high earners to pay more _while they’re actually earning_ seems reasonable, and politically feasible too. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2013, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-means-testing-of-ssi-and-medicare-be-pushed-through/671583/56 "2013-10-20T05:23:36Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > Removing the cap is the final admission that Social Security is NOT a system that you pay into, and later get benefits - rather it is a tax system for redistributing money from people working to people retired. Yes, I know that is what it always has been - but that is not how it was sold nor is it how it is described. That said, I would rather remove the cap than means test - and I am fortunate enough to get nailed if you remove the cap. If you removed the cap, the benefits would increase as well. So someone who makes 10 million dollars a year would for 30 years would get a social security check in the tens of thousands of dollars but would have to live to be 125 just to break even. The final admission would be mean testing social security so that the guy who continues to earn 10 million dollars after he is eligible doesn’t get to see any money at all. Thats why lifting the cap is OK (and would cover virtually all the extra money money that will be going out once the boomers start collecting). > [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Krugman’s arguments strike me as either a counsel of despair (it won’t raise any money anyway) or a redirection (we should raise taxes instead). Neither are actually valid arguments against the concept. Means testing will not raise a lot of money. Almost by definition. Its not ever worth pursuing for the violence it will do to the program. > [@](#): > > If I’ve learned anything in finance it’s that this sort of game is won on the margins. You save pennies and nickels in a lot of places until it adds up to a real figure. Given the absence of any other real reform a marginal win is a win. It depends on your goals. If you want to get rid of social security and medicare then means testing is progress because it will undermine these program creating a permanent constituency that will be in favor of eliminating it. You will also have turned these programs into a form of welfare, further undermining their popularity. If you want to make ends meet, then raising the cap and raising taxes and reforming medicare benefits is the painful but probably necessary path. > [@](#): > > Remember, though, that my question is “Can this get through” rather than “Is this a good idea?” Those are two very different questions. If raising taxes are a non-starter, then I think means testing is also a non-start, politically at least. > [@Debaser](#): > > Buffet and Gates pay a thousandth of a percent and someone flipping burgers pays almost 15%. Then Buffet and Gates get more out at the end. Sounds regressive to me. Buffetts ROI (return on investment) is probably positive but most of the people like him are probably not breaking even. Bill Gates would probably have to live to 100 to break even. > [@](#): > > But it does, over a long enough time period. > > That’s like saying “Find me a plane that flies without relying on gravity being 9.8 m/s”. > > I trust the market to continue to perform a lot more than I do the government to continue to honor SS payments at current levels. The markets only perform that way if you get very selective about how you measure the market and the time frame during which you measure that market. Look at this chart and tell me that you have any confidence where the market will be in 20 years? > **[File:S&P500 (1950-12).jpg](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:S%26P500_(1950-12).jpg)** > > Original file (898 × 554 pixels, file size: 129 KB, MIME type: image/jpeg) > Click on a date/time to view the file as it appeared at that time. > You cannot overwrite this file. There are no pages that use this file. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2013, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-means-testing-of-ssi-and-medicare-be-pushed-through/671583/57 "2013-10-20T08:37:25Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > The employer is very aware of what it costs them to employ the burger flipper. Believe me, they factor it in. Correct. I find it odd (though neither stupid nor heartless) that some have trouble with this concept. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Look at this chart and tell me that you have any confidence where the market will be in 20 years? > > [File:S&P500 (1950-12).jpg - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:S%26P500_(1950-12).jpg) Interesting graph, though I would prefer [one (orange plot) that had logarithmic y-axis, adjusted for dividend reinvestment, and used constant dollars.](http://www.simplestockinvesting.com/images/SP500_real_return.png) I’d also prefer to compare performance with that of highest-quality bonds, rather than a “hoarding default,” but one takes what one can get. The meme that (S&P-500) stocks held for any 20-year period show a gain is still intact however. (Though records will be broken, with those who bought in the late 1990’s and held soon underperforming those who bought at the 1929 top.) That meme shows lack of perspective, however. To demonstrate the point, I’ve pointed out that, for most of the 20th-century, _a portfolio of German stocks would **lose** over any 20-year period._ Disclaimer: This post is neither an offer of advice for any investment other than American common stocks, nor is it a solicitation for such an offer. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2013, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-means-testing-of-ssi-and-medicare-be-pushed-through/671583/58 "2013-10-20T13:21:05Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > And no employer is going to raise a worker’s salary just to compensate for the 15% you think should be taken out. Let’s assume that you are correct and that these business would not do that. But you are very knowledgeable in your field and think that you can do it better than the next guy and go out and start your own business. You just got hit with a 6.2% tax increase. Also the greedy business who spends 6.2% of his employee’s pay on whiskey and cigars is less competitive than the business down the road who would reinvest that money back into salaries. There’s no free lunch even for businesses. In any event, the tax is there in the system, just hidden from most workers. As others have said, this would be an insidious tax increase. I know that the left would love to tax the rich, but because it isn’t politically feasible for a 9 or 15 percent tax increase (however you want to characterize it) on the wealthy, it is dishonest to do it with a hidden tax increase. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2013, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-means-testing-of-ssi-and-medicare-be-pushed-through/671583/59 "2013-10-20T13:28:55Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Well, this is certainly not true. Two things: > > 1. As a candidate, I attended Tea Party meetings where state-level leaders made just this point. > > 2. On a radio show in 2010 I heard the leader of ‘Tea Party Patriots’ (described as one of the largest in the country for whatever that means) say that the budget needed to be cut. When it was suggested that cuts would need to be made to Social Security and Medicare to get there she stated that those programs couldn’t be cut because she counted on them. 1. I don’t believe you. 2. I still don’t believe you. If you are going to assert this kind of thing as “certainly true”, you need credible cites. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2013, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-means-testing-of-ssi-and-medicare-be-pushed-through/671583/60 "2013-10-20T14:37:44Z")
For something slightly more solid than anecdotes: [Tea Party on Social Security](http://www.ontheissues.org/celeb/Tea_Party_Social_Security.htm) [The Tea Party and the Entitlement Fight](http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304410204579143252543919512) From 2011, a poll by: [Marist College Institute for Public Opinion](http://maristpoll.marist.edu/wp-content/misc/usapolls/US111108/Congress_Flat%20Tax_Mill%20Tax/Complete%20November%2018,%202011%20USA%20McClatchy-Marist%20Poll%20Release%20and%20Tables.pdf) (.pdf) Page 8. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-means-testing-of-ssi-and-medicare-be-pushed-through/671583.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-means-testing-of-ssi-and-medicare-be-pushed-through/671583.md?page=4)