# Could Montana get the court to reconsider Citizens United? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [June 10, 2012, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-montana-get-the-court-to-reconsider-citizens-united/624699 "2012-06-10T08:43:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 31
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-montana-get-the-court-to-reconsider-citizens-united/624699/601 "2012-08-07T09:53:30Z")
> [@lance strongarm](#): > > Either you respect the dignity, **rationality and free will** of all the people in a democracy, or you don’t. No middle ground, no compromises. Bolding mine. > [@lance strongarm](#): > > The Constitution limits the power of government, even when that goes **against the will of the people**. Bolding and deitalicising mine. > [@lance strongarm](#): > > that’s YOUR assumption. > [@lance strongarm](#): > > You believe certain elites, including you, are immune. > [@lance strongarm](#): > > So you think you’re a drooling idiot too? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2012, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-montana-get-the-court-to-reconsider-citizens-united/624699/602 "2012-08-07T16:39:01Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > Bolding mine. > > Bolding and deitalicising mine. So you believe that we should not have a Bill of Rights. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2012, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-montana-get-the-court-to-reconsider-citizens-united/624699/603 "2012-08-08T07:47:05Z")
> [@lance strongarm](#): > > So you believe that we should not have a Bill of Rights. I’d have no problem with it under certain conditions. For instance, if the bill of rights were adopted by a supermajority and required the same to amend, or if it were adopted nationally despite regional opposition. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2012, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-montana-get-the-court-to-reconsider-citizens-united/624699/604 "2012-08-08T12:53:06Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > I’d have no problem with it under certain conditions. Um, we already have a bill of rights. Do you support it or not? > [@](#): > > For instance, if the bill of rights were adopted by a supermajority and required the same to amend, or if it were adopted nationally despite regional opposition. So you also don’t like our amendment process? ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-montana-get-the-court-to-reconsider-citizens-united/624699/605 "2012-08-10T01:06:41Z")
> [@lance strongarm](#): > > So you also don’t like our amendment process? Correct. I believe it is undemocratic. > [@lance strongarm](#): > > Do you support it or not? Given the Supreme Court’s interpretation of the rights granted by the first amendment, I can’t say I do in its entirety. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-montana-get-the-court-to-reconsider-citizens-united/624699/606 "2012-08-10T01:09:43Z")
Democracy, as in everything gets decided by slim majorities, isn’t really a moral form of government. The point of the Bill of Rights and limited government is precisely so slim majorities can’t use temporary windows of power to trample on the minority. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-montana-get-the-court-to-reconsider-citizens-united/624699/607 "2012-08-10T13:02:54Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > Given the Supreme Court’s interpretation of the rights granted by the first amendment, I can’t say I do in its entirety. Thanks for going on record. I don’t see how you can support ANY rights, given that you think the will of the majority should be supreme in all cases. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-montana-get-the-court-to-reconsider-citizens-united/624699/608 "2012-08-10T14:11:17Z")
> [@lance strongarm](#): > > Thanks for going on record. It’s impossible to support every amendment to the Constitution, as the 18th blatantly contradicts the 21st. I don’t support the interpretation of the equal protection clause applying to corporations, that doesn’t entail that I support slavery. > [@lance strongarm](#): > > I don’t see how you can support ANY rights, given that you think the will of the majority should be supreme in all cases. I believe democracy is the best antidote to totalitarianism. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2012, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-montana-get-the-court-to-reconsider-citizens-united/624699/609 "2012-08-10T14:28:19Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > It’s impossible to support every amendment to the Constitution, as the 18th blatantly contradicts the 21st. I don’t support the interpretation of the equal protection clause applying to corporations, that doesn’t entail that I support slavery. I was talking about the Bill of Rights, but whatever. It seems to me that you should oppose any and all limits on government power since you keep complaining about the Bill of Rights limiting the choices of the poeple. > [@](#): > > I believe democracy is the best antidote to totalitarianism. Perhaps, but democracy can BE totalitarianism too. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-montana-get-the-court-to-reconsider-citizens-united/624699/610 "2012-08-11T00:47:45Z")
You don’t have to support every part of the Constitution, but you do have to support the correct means for changing it. And recognize that no one has yet come up with any language to overturn Citizens United that doesn’t eliminate free speech protections entirely. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-montana-get-the-court-to-reconsider-citizens-united/624699/611 "2012-08-11T09:41:37Z")
> [@lance strongarm](#): > > I was talking about the Bill of Rights, but whatever. True, I checked back. I don’t believe the second amendment does more good for America than harm either. Other provisions I have no problem with. The third amendment seems pretty reasonable. > [@adaher](#): > > And recognize that no one has yet come up with any language to overturn Citizens United that doesn’t eliminate free speech protections entirely. I think the Senate Resolution I posted does so. It explicitly mentions freedom of the press. Journalists will be able to take any stand they want. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-montana-get-the-court-to-reconsider-citizens-united/624699/612 "2012-08-11T09:49:01Z")
Freedom of the press is freedom of the printing press and other venues of communication. if the amendment only means freedom of the press to apply to journalists, it needs to state that explicitly. And although most proposed amendments have press exceptions, I think that senate resolution lacked exceptions. It’s a blank check for Congress to regulate all electioneering communications, regardless of the source. Which is fair. If we’re going to do violence to the 1st amendment let’s at least spare the 14th. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2012, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-montana-get-the-court-to-reconsider-citizens-united/624699/613 "2012-08-12T21:54:58Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > True, I checked back. I don’t believe the second amendment does more good for America than harm either. Other provisions I have no problem with. The third amendment seems pretty reasonable. You don’t seem to like the First Amendment that much. > [@](#): > > I think the Senate Resolution I posted does so. It explicitly mentions freedom of the press. Journalists will be able to take any stand they want. Why are journalists special? You think ads are evil, but Fox News is fine? What if all the advertisers just buy themselves networks like Murdoch did and spew whatever they want all day for free? How is that different? Why do you think people with printing presses, or the modern equivalent, should have more rights to speak their minds than those without them? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-montana-get-the-court-to-reconsider-citizens-united/624699/614 "2012-08-13T03:17:45Z")
That would be a useful attack point against such an amendment: it enshrines special rights for mainstream media journalists that no one else will have. That would set equal protection back as well as freedom of speech and freedom of the press. Just how much violence are we willing to do to the Bill of Rights? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-montana-get-the-court-to-reconsider-citizens-united/624699/615 "2012-08-13T13:39:08Z")
Instead of giant corporations (and regular people pooling their money) to buy a little time in the media, the giant corporations with enough money to buy broadcast licenses and run huge broadcast networks will have all that time to themselves. Talk about crowding out speech. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-montana-get-the-court-to-reconsider-citizens-united/624699/616 "2012-08-13T13:40:29Z")
What I don’t get is why they are even bothering with an amendment. Supposedly elections aren’t fair due to advertising by wealthy interests. How would they expect to get an amendment passed when the wealthy would just spend millions to defeat it? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-montana-get-the-court-to-reconsider-citizens-united/624699/617 "2012-08-13T14:02:29Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > What I don’t get is why they are even bothering with an amendment. Supposedly elections aren’t fair due to advertising by wealthy interests. How would they expect to get an amendment passed when the wealthy would just spend millions to defeat it? Because the alternative is taking guns and shooting people. If your ballot does not work, it’s bullet time. That’s why democracy, awful as it is with all those idiots voting, is the best system we have. All the others go to bullets sooner or later. The prospect of getting a Constitutional Amendment passed is daunting for EXACTLY the reason you state, but it’s better than shooting people and being shot at by people. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-montana-get-the-court-to-reconsider-citizens-united/624699/618 "2012-08-13T14:07:24Z")
Bad logic.🙂 Here’s the thing. Let’s say you guys are right and all this money in politics is convincing people to vote in ways they otherwise wouldn’t. They’ve still decided to support these politicians! To the voter, democracy is working just fine! Why would voters grab guns and shoot the very people they decided to elect? ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-montana-get-the-court-to-reconsider-citizens-united/624699/619 "2012-08-13T16:08:03Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > If we’re going to do violence to the 1st amendment let’s at least spare the 14th. The 14th amendment was written to emancipate slaves. I think the judicial precedence of applying the rights enshrined in it to corporations has done far more damage to it. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2012, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-montana-get-the-court-to-reconsider-citizens-united/624699/620 "2012-08-13T16:21:06Z")
The 14th amendment applies equal protection. A press exception that is interpreted to apply only to the mainstream media is not only violating equal protection against corporations, but individuals engaged in journalism as well. Individuals engaging in journalism already have problems with judges considering them to not have press rights because they are ignorant. We don’t need an amendment codifying the special privileges the mainstream media thinks it is entitled to. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-montana-get-the-court-to-reconsider-citizens-united/624699.md?page=30) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-montana-get-the-court-to-reconsider-citizens-united/624699.md?page=32)