Could Obama be a (gasp) supply sider?

I guess maybe the economic news from the US doesn’t make it to Canada, but are you really saying that there is full employment in the construction trades? For one example, several projects about to begin in California have been frozen due to the state’s economic crisis. Perhaps getting them going again might help the unemployment problem?

Well, Arnold says there is $28 billion dollars worth of projects in California alone that can be started in the next four months. (Cite. ) The US is way behind in infrastructure maintenance thanks to continued pressure on state budgets, due to your side.

This from the person defending Halliburton? It is to laugh. I’m sure the allocation will be political, as it always is, but there is plenty of work in all the states, and the need to use projects already defined but unfunded should reduce the number of makework projects.

What exactly does the problems of the levees have to do with the subject? Are you saying levee repair was not needed?

Carried out at multiple times the cost it would have required if that old inefficient government were doing the work. Have you actually read anything about this, or is this an instance of your private good, public bad fundamentalist faith?

Do the words liquidity crisis mean anything to you? Are you claiming this is a common garden variety recession? I don’t think even people on your side think that - except for the few fundamentalists who object to any government stimulus.

Gee, you admit we were right. Well, that’s something. Why did Greenspan screw up and keep interest rates too low? Maybe for growth that should have come through rising salaries through rising productivity - which didn’t happen thanks to the philosophy of keeping wages as low as possible to increase profits. If there was better regulation of the mortgage markets the price rise would have been mitigated, and there would no doubt be a recession but much milder than what we have now. Krugman, by the way, has been saying this for years.

The fact is, there is money to borrow - but the banks won’t lend it, due to fear. Paulson has let the banks sit on the money to improve their balance sheets, and we’re still screwed. That is a big part of the auto problem - car dealers cannot get loans for customers who have good credit, and so can’t sell the cars.

We’re saying that during times of prosperity the deficit should have been cut, which makes it simpler to use the deficit when times are bad, like now. It is possible to moderate economic policy based on conditions, unlike the current Administration where the answer to every problem is a tax cut for the rich.

For the record, my remark about confiscating money from Haliburton was a joke.

I still think that no one who supports staying in Iraq has any business complaining about spending on infrastructure, though.

From what I’ve read, they see roughly similar terrain, but Krugman is adamant that the correct formula is to Go Huge and Right Now, and Obama is considerably more cautious. I tend to lean more to Krugman’s side of the issue, but can readily see lots of good reasons why Obama might be more reserved, if only to reassure those amongst us who are already clutching their pearls and swooning…

Explain to me again what moron would use money to increase production when there is no demand? The Times today said that December retail sales were down by 2.3% Customer traffic during Christmas week dropped by 4.6%.
Clearly, money for increased production should come from increased sales and thus increased profitability. Just like in 2001 - the way to deal with a massive oversupply of production is not a supply side policy, which is what was done. When companies are writing off billions of dollars of inventory, was supply side really a good solution? When the stores are desperately cutting prices, like today, is supply side the right solution? When Detroit is closing factories left and right, is investing in more production the right solution?

If the TV factory is running at 50%, and they are just about to lay off people who will then not be able to afford products from other factories, maybe making it easier to buy a TV, and thus keeping those people employed and consuming, does make sense. I’m all for supply side remedies when there is a shortage of capital and production. There is the problem that the jobs created by increased production will primarily go to China, but that is another problem.

Also in the Times today is a fascinating article about China, where it says that 10,000 to 60,000 factories owned by Hong Kong have close or will close in the next few months. That doesn’t include factories owned by the mainland. The Chinese have discourage internal consumption in favor of savings and encourage exports, and now that the export market is in trouble they are screwed. Does this sound like a supply side problem to you?

I’m confused. When is a drop in demand not temporary? I’ve just cited the drop in productive capacity in China, and I can mention Detroit. Factories can be restarted, so this criteria doesn’t seem to make a lot of sense. In the electronics business, a lot of production is through contract manufacturers, who suffer in downturns (like the dot com bust) but can come back pretty quickly.

The middle class debt comes from the lack of growth in income as pressure to consume was met by low interest loans and the housing bubble. (And to some extent unsustainable loans, a market that prospered due to unregulated instruments, fraud, and asleep at the switch rating companies. A lot of debt, like that if the Tribune companies, comes from bad business deals brokered by incompetent banks and helped again by low interest rates. A reasonable renegotiation of mortgage interest rates and a better job market will help a lot. We’ve already transferred the debt of the banks to the government, why not the middle class? If they pay off their mortgages, that might get the mortgage backed securities able to be traded, which might help the liquidity crisis. Do you think more foreclosures and a continued drop in housing prices due to these properties on the market is going to help?

I think the correction is underway. 1.9 million jobs were lost in 2008. If that isn’t a correction, I’d hate to live through one.

I’ve seen information that the Depression was prolonged in part because FDR was convinced to try to balance the budget in 1937, which hurt demand again. I’m not sure how you could not say that the period between 1929 and 1933 wasn’t a deep recession - though not particularly short. By your lights it should have been all better by the 1932 election.

Is Green Pants the Bizarro World version of Red Shirt? ** Der Trihs** as anti-matter?

Are you related to Rm. Neerg Snaej from the mirror Captain Kangaroo by any chance?

Thank you for that lede. It has to be the most to-the-point retort to supply-side advocates (given current conditions) that I can recall.

Not all construction trades are equal. There’s not much use in the road-building business for all the carpenters layed off because of the housing crunch, you know? Also, availability of specialized trades will vary by region, and these are very regional jobs.

Like I said, there are a few jobs that are ready to go, but nowhere near enough to consume the kind of money Obama wants to spend. If California’s only got 28 billion worth of jobs ready to go, I imagine you’re not going to find more than a couple hundred billion worth across the country. I’d be in favor at looking towards the feds funding some of those.

Gee, maybe those states could have diverted some funds from all the other stuff they do, rather than just ask for more. California in particular has a history of blowing money like it won’t exist tomorrow.

I agree with this. I think there should be an effort to fast-track projects that are already in the pipeline and ready to break ground, with the feds providing the funds. I just doubt that there will be enough of those. You might find enough that are ready to go to eat up maybe 100 billion dollars in initial funding, and another 100 billion in six months to a year. That sounds like a reasonable plan to me.

No, I’m saying it WAS needed, but that it was done while other, much less important projects were funded. My point was that the federal government sucks at allocating funds for state level infrastructure development, and if you give them a trillion bucks to spend, it will wind up willy-nilly all over the place, driven more by political considerations and corruption than by what needs to be done. The whole premise behind stimulating through infrastructure spending is that you have to do it anyway, and there’s lots that needs to be done, so why not do it all now? But if the feds spend half a trillion on useless projects driven by political considerations, that’s not really helping. In fact, it’s just creating an additional maintenance headache for the future. You want your dollars directed where they will have the most effect on the continued economic health of the country, and that’s not necessarily where the Senators on the appropriations committees live.

I’ve been the one saying this isn’t a garden-variety recession. It’s a ‘balance sheet’ recession of the type Japan has experienced for 15 years. You can’t stimulate your way out of those, on either the supply OR the demand side.

Here we have plenty of construction work lined up to retrofit buildings to survive when the big one hits. I suspect that most states have lots of school refitting projects also, which can be done by building construction people quite nicely.

Clearly all the stimulus money is not going to be dumped into the economy on day 1. A couple of hundred billion would do just fine as a starter, and then more projects can get moved along. If we tried to spend a trillion bucks on day one, your point about not having enough workers would definitely come into play.

Most if not all capital projects are funded by bonds which are voted on by the people. Some things, like the Bay Bridge retrofit, are funded by tolls. There are cases - like that one - where the project goes way over budget, but there are also road projects near me which are under budget and beat the schedule. And you can’t move expense money (like for welfare and schools) into the capital budget.
One big problem is that states are required to balance their budgets, thus the need to meet revenue shortfalls during a recession by cutting jobs and projects.

If we have $28 billion in projects, I bet there are at least $200 billion ready to go. Lots of projects are a function of state size, not population, since interstates cost is by mile. Plus, I suspect states with less money than we do (like Michigan) have even bigger lists of projects. There actually has been a bunch of road improvements around here.

It would be nice to optimize this for the entire country, but I agree that this isn’t going to happen. A lot of infrastructure projects are repairs (like bridge repairs) and widening, not entirely new roads which wouldn’t get approved for at least five years anyway. Now, you might claim that your bridge is more important to fix than my bridge, but fixing either one is an improvement. I’m not naive enough to say that a bridge to nowhere or two might sneak in, but we’re so far behind I don’t see a Congressperson risk the wrath of not getting the jobs now to push a big new project that will take a long time to start.

Halliburton didn’t seem to mind big government and massive government spending when it was the beneficiary.

Anyone who supports the Iraq War should also be willing to pay for it. The economic meltdown has given the anti-tax crowd a reprieve –-for now. But I hope a President Obama eventually taxes the hell out of the Halliburtons and the profoundly rich top one percent of Americans.

  1. Infrastructure spending will take time to get going — a new Goldman Sachs report suggests that projects that are “shovel-ready” are probably only a few tens of billions worth, and that a larger effort would take much of a year to get going. Meanwhile, it’s very questionable how much effect tax rebates will have on consumer demand. So it may be hard for stimulus to get much traction until late 2009 — and that’s even if Congress goes along, which may be a problem given all the bad analysis and disinformation out there.

-Paul Krugman

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/12/04/worries-about-next-year/

I wonder, would this current economy be represented graphically through a drop in AD and SRAS? The posts made by both Voyager and Sam are interesting. Supply is being affected by the increased difficulty in taking on debt for funding short and long term payables and investments (well, I’ll have to think about that…), falling demand, and falling prices. Demand is being affected by, well, just about everything, including falling supply. Changes in discretionary income, household debt, tighter credit, falling equity prices, falling home prices, unemployment, and the soon to be struggle with inflation.

I’ll have to ruminate on this for a bit. Thanks for the discussion. Any further replies/critique appreciated (hint hint).

Maybe a thread title change should be requested? Because except for a few early posts, the debate here isn’t over whether Obama’s economic proposals are supply-side, but rather whether they’re the right course of action.

This is not true.

A Keynesian stimulus is specifically intended for situations in which traditional monetary policy has failed, regardless of how the economy got to that situation. Keynesian balancing of the business cycle is no longer favored. You are making a fundamental misreading of this theory, as I’ve already pointed out to you. You are tragically mistaken on how this piece of economics works. You’re not poorly read on the subject, but you clearly have large holes in your knowledge with respect to basic macroeconomic theory. This is simply ideology forcing people to act the ostrich when the facts say the exact opposite of what they want to believe. It’s the same reason that I can find a professional Chicago economist right now claiming that unemployment is going up because people don’t want to work, when unemployment figures don’t even include people who don’t want to work. Ideology makes people blind.

At this point, you’re simply echoing your past mistakes, as if repetition will make your errors turn out right. That’s not how it works. When it comes to the core of this issue, you were wrong then and you’re still wrong now, regardless of whatever good side points you make along the way.

How would your vision of “proper” Keynesian spending be different than the issues described here:

Keynesian Economics Is Wrong: Bigger Gov’t Is Not Stimulus

Also, to gauge your bias (if any) to Keynesian economics, can you think of any situation where Keynesian stimulus would be bad even though it appears to be the right thing to do?

Basic Keynesian ideas are a part of mainstream macroeconomic economics and are accepted by a large majority of economists including right-wing economists like Mankiw. Sam Stone is wrong to argue that a Keynesian fiscal stimulus is inappropriate because this is a “balance-sheet recession”. It doesn’t matter how a recession first starts; as it develops you see a similar pattern of declining consumer and investor confidence which leads to a fall in aggregate demand which means that demand is less than the potential output of the economy. This leads to the possibility of a free lunch since there is a lot of unused capacity which is lying idle because of insufficient demand. Now often, monetary policy is enough to ensure adequate demand but in the current scenario the fed funds rate is close to zero and the economy is still deep in recession. There are other monetary measures called quantitative easing which are being used but they are unorthodox and relatively unknown in their impact. Therefore it makes sense to supplement them with a conventional fiscal stimulus which is fairly well understood.

In the dispute between Krugman and Obama, I think Krugman is probably right, but I still favor Obama. Why? In a word, mojo. Obama got mojo, and mojo is needed.

Getting money into the hands of (potential) consumers is very good for a consumerist economy. (I rather regret that we are a consumerist economy, but that’s neither here nor there.) To succeed, the stimulus must finish one more step beyond getting power into the consumer’s hands, it must further reassure the consumer that he can spend the money. Who is going to buy a car if they are worried about buying shoes for their children?

Econimic theory is all very well, and might be even better if I actually understood any of it. But this part I do understand, and that is that all of this about “rational actors” misses the point. People are not now, nor have they ever been, “rational actors”. They are people, and people have motivations that are not accessible to argument.

There is an element of faith in any such stimulus, the belief (rational or no) that something can be done, something is being done, and you can see it happen. A perfectly sensible Keynesian solution enacted by a leader without mojo is more likely to fail than a slightly less sensible solution enacted by a leader with mojo. The people gotta believe, or Tinkerbelle dies. Period. Full stop.

[Underlining is mine.]

The “balance-sheet” recession is what the situation is and not the “start” of something. Relabeling it from “is” to “start” is faulty economics reasoning.

Hmm… Is there a difference between “unused capacity” and “misallocated capacity” (malinvestment)?

Cato Institute? Seriously?

The arguments in the video are a complete joke. The guy does have a set of facts, but he cites them out of context and without a solid theory in place, and so he’s unable to grasp the relevant information. The result is a wankfest propaganda piece.

At about 1:30 he claims that Keynesianism can’t work to put money into the economy without taking money out of the economy. After all, the government has to borrow money (i.e. take it out of the economy) in order to spend it, right? Except, of course, that he doesn’t understand velocity, which is how fast money changes hands. If the government borrows 1 dollar and spends it, and the person who receives that dollar spends it, and then the person who receives that dollar spends it, then the net increase to the economy is much more than just the $1 borrowed. This is called the fiscal multiplier. Even without the multiplier, though, a dollar borrowed and used for real production will contribute more than a dollar stuck in a bank vault or hidden in a mattress.

This is stuff you learn in undergraduate economics, 101. But we can’t expect this sort of knowledge from a partisan hack.

This sort of nonsense continues. He claims that politicians are aware now that you can’t just print money. He doesn’t seem to know that the politicians gave away their control over the money supply a long damn time ago, to the Federal Reserve. He also doesn’t seem to understand that expansionary monetary policy is also an appropriate response in certain situations. Fed Chair Ben Bernanke has in fact been “printing” money. He’s created over a trillion new dollars so far, ex nihilo, to combat this crisis, precisely for the purpose of getting money to move again. The Cato guy doesn’t even deal with that sort of response because he’s too ignorant to know about it.

He then cites the example of Hoover as “Keynesian” when Hoover raised taxes. Keynesian is about increasing the budget deficit, not balancing the budget. Tax increases are not part of the deal. FDR also fell prey to the same budget balancing desires with higher taxes, and economists state damn near unanimously that those tax increases were a mistake. They were unequivocally contrary to Keynesian policy. So why include the tax increases in a critique of Keynesianism? Because the Cato institute guy is a partisan douchebag who’s out to repeat conservative bugbears about high taxes and government spending. The actual economics is irrelevant to him.

Again, there are real facts here, but no coherent whole. It is true that Hoover sustained a budget deficit, but it wasn’t a large or well targeted budget deficit. Much of it was the result of the economic downturn, and whatever additional spending he approved was largely outweighed by his tax increases, not to mention the idiot tariffs. FDR was better, but he still wasn’t perfect. He did increase government spending, but not by nearly enough. Here’s a chart I provided in another thread, and from it you can easily see how comparatively little the budget deficits increased under FDR until WWII got us off our asses. WWII, of course, was the real example of large Keynesian stimulus, but that is of course ignored completely.

And in what might be the most intentionally misleading fact of all, the Cato guy then averages unemployment over the entire 1930s (including before Roosevelt took office) in order to claim that the Keynesian spending didn’t cut employment. What a fucking joke. These people are paid to lie, and that’s what they do. Wealthy conservatives have an incentive to muddy economics discussions with misinformation, and so according to economic theory itself, a supply of lies will be created to meet this demand.

Absolutely I can. (Although I don’t see this so much as a measure of bias as a measure of basic understanding of theory and history.)

Early on, economists used to try to balance the regular business cycle with timed increases in spending. However, there is a lag between noticing a problem and coming up with the plan to stop it, and there’s another lag between implementing a stimulus and seeing the results. Ordinarily recessions are typically too short to justify Keynesian stimulus. By the time the stimulus hits the economy, it can’t help any more, and then you’re stuck with all the costs and none of the benefits.

Incidentally, this point is prolly one reason why Sam Stone is confused about Keynesianism. It was actually used for a long time as an excuse to balance the business cycle like this. It makes sense on the face of it. Keep in mind, the theoretical mechanism that Keynes developed could be used for any kind of recession. The problem is that it’s incredibly difficult to time it correctly. So even though it would appear to be a proper solution for every recession, that’s not actually case.

The monetarists had their problems, but they were right in this regard. Monetary policy is usually more reliable than fiscal policy. Why use a fiscal stimulus when the Fed can just cut interest rates?

Even when dealing with this note of caution, though, what we’re dealing with now is not a small downturn. It’s a big damn recession, potentially a depression. The Fed has already cut short term interest rates to near zero. Thankfully, though, we have a roadmap out of this mess. We can still rely on a big damn stimulus, if we get it done right. The debt will suck, but we’ll survive. The US debt-to-GDP ratio got up to 120% during WWII, and yet economic growth was relatively strong in the 1950s and 60s. We just need to stomp on the debt once the present crisis is over. It’ll be a pain in the ass, but we should manage.

Oh and that libertarian video is complete rubbish and gets both the theory and history wrong. First he obviously doesn’t understand the basic theory for why government borrowing can boost aggregate demand. In a normal economy a fall in consumption translates into greater savings which through the financial system leads to greater investment. If this mechanism works then aggregate demand is left untouched since the reduced consumption is balanced by the greater investment. However in a recession this doesn’t work you have both reduced consumption and reduced investments. Consumers are saving more but for various reasons the financial system doesn’t translate that into greater investment. This is where the government can step in and borrow that extra savings and pump it back into the economy by increasing government spending which is the third component of aggregate demand.

As for the history Hoover and Roosevelt most certainly didn't practice Keynesian economics. Raising taxes is certainly not what Keynes would prescribe in a depression. Both of them were too worried about the conventional wisdom of the day which prescribed balanced budgets. The budget deficits during the 30's were fairly low especially if you include state budgets in the calculation; certainly they were a lot lower than what Keynesians would have prescribed.

Really free-market types undermine their credibility when they use this rubbish. There are some skeptics like the above-mentioned Mankiw who have made some smart points about the fiscal stimulus. For example I believe he thinks that there should be a great role for tax cuts especially payroll tax cuts. There was a smart op-ed by Robert Lucas about how monetary policy remains effective. I don’t necessarily agree with all their arguments but they are a hell of a lot more intelligent than that video.

What is the faulty economics reasoning? Regardless of how the recession began, it is becoming a typical recession with declining consumer and investor confidence which affects a range of industries not just the ones where “malinvestment” initially occured. Similarly there will be job cuts across a range of industries going well beyond the real estate and financial sectors. This represents a waste of economic resources.