Could Roe vs. Wade be overturned by Dubya?

Canada’s staunchly pro-choice, but the politicians are just as bad in so many other interesting ways.

That said, the “Bush is gonna reverse RvW” line is sheer scare-tactic BS. Like Reagan, Bush and Dole before him, Dubya talks a fine pro-life patter for the benefit of the right wing of the GOP, but like them there’s scant evidence he’d ever do a thing about it. Like Gore, Dubya has no strong convictions or beliefs that I can see beyond “I want to be President,” so I have my doubts he’d risk his Presidency by being anything other than affixed firmly to the fence.

If Dubya should win the white house he will make every effort to bow to the religious right and promise to have a new set of justices who will do this. He hasn’t a chance in hell of doing this. I will tell you why.

The Republican platform calls for an Amendment to the Constitution that would make abortion a federal criminal offense (read murder, folks). The day they bring a women into the courts on a murder charge they had better have the man responsible for her pregnance standing next to her or the women of America will show you what a real civil war looks like.

I’m old enough to remember when abortions were illegal and many of my friends ended up dead on the beaches south of San Diego bleeding from botched abortions. This because a terrible problem in the early sixties and the government knew something had to be done.

Prohibition didn’t work with booze and it didn’t work with abortions. The argument for making a change in the laws came when many women (house/senate wives and girlfriends) had only top fly to Europe where the procedures were legal.

Kennedy was elected and the subject of legalizing abortion was put on the back burner. Nixon was elected and in 1972 the Roe vs Wade trial allowed the procedure to become legal and 90% of the women started breathing more freely.

I’m not happy with the government paying for all the procedures and was pleased when RU486 was approved and that should cut the costs down to practically nothing.

Oh, don’t start in on my morals or values, they are none of your business. The women in America are different that those in your mother’s day and they demand choices just like so many men do.

I am a political writer and spent some time in Washington DC two months ago and I can assure you that if Dubya should make it he will keep his mouth shut. He started making noises about keeping RU486 away from the women and he can’t do that either. If this country doesn’t get some of our freedoms back we might as well just join a convent or monastary.

My motto is “Family Values are None of the Government’s Damn Business”

Are you going to start thowing rocks at this poor gray-haired grandmother? Do be kind.

beagledave wrote:

Yeah – I thought the Republican Party officially dropped the abortion issue from its platform in '92 or '96.

Although I’m not entirely certain that Bush will appoint openly pro life jurists either…I don’t follow your reasoning here…you offer several reasons on why you are pro choice…but I don’t see that as proving anything about the type of jurists Bush will or will not appoint (which is the OP)

Although Sandy speaks with the voice of authority, I am left unsatisfied with her analysis.

Bush does not have direct control over the justices he appoints. Once a nominee is confirmed, Bush no longer has the ability to lean on judges to vote his way. If the president could influence the way SC justices vote, would Souter have turned out to be such a liberal embarrassment?

Strict constructionists do not necessarily have to be pro-life, per se. They are anti federal regulation in areas they believe should be left to the states. So a perfectly pro-choice judge could conceivably vote against RvW if his constructionist conscience is stronger.

It would not be political suicide for RvW to be repealed, nor would it result in armed revolt. After all, the restrictions are so strong in so many states and abortion clinics are so few that approximately 80% of American women don’t have access to abortions in the first place, regardless of RvW. And it wouldn’t even be Dubya’s responsibility, it would be the court’s.

Which, of course, would be passed by the legislature. A far cry from overturning RvW.

We are all waiting.

MR

tracer said:

Nope. There was an attempt by moderates to have it removed this time around, but they were pushed back. It’s still there.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by David B *
**John, you’re also going strictly by age. The other female justice (I can never remember her name) has been fighting cancer. I think it’s quite possible that she will step down or, well, die, within the next four years.
[/B}

Ruth Bader Ginsburg.

Colon cancer.

Does anyone realize the implications of overturning RvW, what hell there will be to pay? State legislatures will do nothing but bitterly argue about abortion forever! As a country, I don’t think we want to go there.

Well, you would think that we, as a country, wouldn’t want to go back to backalley abortions either.

You know, when I posted the same thread we had here about what the penalty should be for women who had an illegal abortion on a Christian board I am a part-time member of, more than one person simply said “The same as first degree murder,” end of discussion.

The consequences of these emotional decisions are rarely thought out well enough in advance…


Yer pal,
Satan

*TIME ELAPSED SINCE I QUIT SMOKING:
Six months, one week, three days, 3 hours, 44 minutes and 11 seconds.
7726 cigarettes not smoked, saving $965.78.
Extra time with Drain Bead: 3 weeks, 5 days, 19 hours, 50 minutes.

I slept with a moderator!*

Do senators even make speeches during confirmation hearings? I didn’t think it was possible to filibuster anything but legislation.

As for the OP, I’ve always gotten the impression that the Roe v. Wade decision is considered sort of sloppy from a strictly jurisprudential standpoint, but it’s stayed intact because it’s pretty clear where the country’s sympathies lie. If it were ever going to be overturned, now would be the time (I’m too young to remember first-hand the political atmosphere of the Reagan and Bush administrations in comparison to the last eight years; am I totally wrong about this?), but I think it’s only an outside chance at best. W. still has to get his appointees through the Senate, and the Democrats are gaining ground in the legislature; I’ve heard speculation that they might regain the House in the upcoming election. So he might, but I wouldn’t lay money on it.

“Strict constructionist” is often used by Republicans as code for “pro-life”.

The Roe v. Wade decision was based on a Constitutional right to privacy. Because the Constitution does not contain the phrase “right to privacy,” a strict constructionist would find that no such right exists. Thus, a “strict constructionist” faced with a challenge to Roe v. Wade would be led by his/her philosophy to find that Roe v. Wade was based on a faulty Constitutional analysis, and should be overturned.

Those who were listening carefully would have heard Bush make a reference in one of the earlier debates to his desire to appoint “strict constructionist” judges to the Supreme Court. That was a not-too-subtle subtle signal to the religious right that he is with them on this issue, and will appoint judges who may be expected to overturn Roe v. Wade. (He won’t say so outright for fear of losing votes, but there it is.)

I agree that strict constructionist jurists would probably find Roe to be a crappy decision…but I think the term “strict constructionist” applies to a whole range of court decisions, not JUST abortion… (affirmative action etc…)

And like I mentioned earlier…both sides are being less than honest on the role of abortion in SCOTUS nominees…there is no way Bush would appoint an openly pro choice jurist…and there is no way Gore would appoint an openly pro life candidate…Both candidates would never tell the voters that though…

Spoke: A strict constructionist might vote to overturn Roe vs. Wade. However, a strict constructionist would then have to conclude that the states have jurisdiction over abortion or it is entirely a private matter. Under a strict construction of the Constitution, all powers not explicitly delegated to the federal government belong to the states and the people (Amendments 9 and 10 of the Bill of Rights).

Satan: I did not participate in that earlier abortion thread, but I think if you view abortion as the equivalent of murder, then logically you have to consider it as first-degree murder since it is clearly pre-mediated.

I’d LIKE to think a future Supreme Court would overturn Roe Vs. Wade, but unfortunately, I don’t see any likelihood of that happening, for several reasons.

  1. George W. Bush just isn’t THAT conservative or that tight with the religious right. He pays them all the requisite lip service, but nothing in his record or background indicates to me that he’ll be consulting with Pat Robertson before he makes important appointments.

  2. George tends to choose people for high positions based on their personal compatibility with and loyalty to HIM, not to any political philosophy. My guess is, he’ll appoint people he likes and feels comfortable with to the Cabinet and to the Court. And those people may or may not toe the Christian Coalition line.

  3. SOME of the justices that the next President will replace are conservatives. William Rehnquist, for instance, is in poor health may resign in the next 4 years. Antonin Scalia is definitely eager to make more money, and may not stick around. Even if Bush appointed die-hard right-to-lifers to replace them, the balance of power on the Court wouldn’t change a whit.

  4. “Liberal” and “Conservative” are important but insufficient labels in describing a judge. I’d say it’s equally important to judge whether a judge is an offensive or defensive liberal/conservative.

What does THAT mean? Well, William Brennan and Steven Breyer can both be described as “liberal.” Antonin Scalia and Anthony Kennedy are both “conservative.” But their temperaments and approaches to the law couldn’t be much more different.

Brennan was an offensive liberal- when he saw a social problem, he wanted to attack it and set it right through the power of the Court, whether or not there was ANYTHING in the Constitution supporting him. He casually went about re-writing the Constitution to suit his personal desires (SOMETIMES, of course, with beneficial results).

Breyer, on the other hand, is NOT going around making up new rights, or reading new rights into the COnstitution. His liberalism is, essentially, defensive. He mainly just wants to preserve and protect the rights created by earlier, more activist liberal judges.

Antonin Scalia is an offensive conservative. When he sees what he considers a perversion of the law, of justice, of the text of the Constitution, he’s eager to go to war to set things right.

Anthony Kennedy, on the other hand, is a defensive conservative. He generally agrees with Scalia that things went too far under the Warren Court… but has far too much reverence for precedent to overturn even rulings he finds illogical and unjust (like Roe vs. Wade).

So… even if George W. Bush won, and got a chance to appoint four Supreme Court justices, and even IF he made a good-faith effort to pick people likely to overturn Roe vs. Wade (and I suspect he wouldn’t; George just isn’t that ideological), he’s likely to end up with a bunch more Anthony Kennedys: guys who MIGHT allow some tinkering with Roe Vs. Wade, who MIGHT allow for a few additional restrictions, but who probably WOULDN’T have the audacity to throw it out entirely.

My sense is, sad to say, George W. would give us Kennedys and Souters- not Scalias.

Oddly enough, even Al Gore is HIGHLY unlikely to appoint any William Brennans to the Court. Al Gore’s “liberal” appointees will PROBABLY be guys looking to protect the Warren Court’s legacy, NOT to create a NEW activist Court.

So, IF my assumptions are correct, the question is, does it really make a HUGE difference whether we have four new Steven Breyers or four new Anthony Kennedys on the Court?

Yes, SOME difference. But FAR less than ideologues on either side think.

How is it that many of your friends died from botched abortions? How are you defining ‘friends’ and ‘many’?
If you had 100 friends and 1 of them died from a botched abortion that would mean 1% of the young women in San Deigo were dieing from abortions. This can’t possibly be correct, can it?

In 1988, our Supreme Court struck down the abortion offence, contained in the federal Criminal Code, on the grounds that it infringed section 7 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. There was no clear majority, but they didn’t take a Roe v. Wade approach. Instead, as near as you can tell from the three judgments that made up the majority, they struck the provision because, as a criminal offence, it did not comply with the principles of fundamental justice (similar to due process under the 14th Amendment). See R. v. Morgentaler, 1988.

What happened next was interesting. The decision left it open to Parliament to pass new abortion legislation, provided it complied with the requirements of the decision. The Progressive Conservative gov’t of PM Mulroney tried twice to enact new legislation. The first bill didn’t make it out of the House of Commons, because it was opposed by both pro-lifers and pro-choicers. It lost on a free vote.

A year or two later, the PC gov’t tried again, with a new bill. This one would have imposed criminal sanctions on abortions in certain circumstances. This bill passed the House of Commons, but was defeated in the Senate on a tie vote. The PM announced that his government had tried twice to legislate in response to the SCC decision, and was not going to try a third time, since there was clearly no consensus on criminalising abortion. There have been no further attempts at federal legislation since then.

jti, your description of events in Canada is interesting.

Even though I am a Gore supporter, and would prefer a more liberal Court, I am willing to concede that even if Roe v. Wade is overturned, that does not automatically mean that abortions will become illegal. It only means that the states would have the power to declare abortion illegal.

Would they do it? Doubtful, given the shift of public opinion that has occurred since Roe v. Wade was decided. Today, a majority of voters favor legalized abortion. With an eye on those numbers, I’m not so sure state politicians would be eager to ban abortion.

Even if a state legislature did ban abortions, it would still be possible for a state supreme court to find that such a ban violates the state constitution, rendering the law unenforceable.

So, I don’t want to come across as a Chicken Little on the Roe v. Wade issue. I don’t think a woman’s ability to obtain a legal abortion will necessarily be lost if that decision is overturned.

On the other hand, I have a problem with “strict constructionist” justices, because they take such a narrow view of our rights. They do not believe that we have any rights not expressly listed in the Constitution. This clearly contradicts the intention of the Founding Fathers, embodied in the 9th Amendment, which says:

So, for example, I would argue that we have the right to privacy, even though such a right is not expressly listed in the Constitution. Liberal justices would agree. Conservative “strict constructionist” judges might not.

A followup point…I think some states have already enacted laws keeping abortion legal, in the event that Roe v. Wade was overturned. (And I think my state of Maryland is one of them. Woohoo!!) Nice safety net, at least.

However, I’m still voting for Gore. I’d rather not take any chances.

Astorian, just because I hate your politics doesn’t mean I can’t argue with you civilly. :wink:

George Bush doesn’t have to be a Pat Robertson to appoint someone who could do, IMHO, judicial harm to this country. A justice does not have to be Robert Bork to overturn important judicial precedent. In the past 10 years, 28% of the decisions have been 5-4. It does not require an idealogue to alter the balance.

Excellent point. Where is he going to find judges loyal to him? How about judges his father put on the federal bench: Ludig, Easterbrook, Edith Whatshername in Texas? They are considered top possible pics for W, consonant in ideology and appointed by his father. All, needless to say, are extremely conservative.

Rehnquist is the first Chief Justice to wear colored bands on his arm indicating his time served on the bench. By all accounts, the man loves his job. Scalia, as much as he wants to make a real living, would not likely leave the court if the real possibility existed for him to make offensive constructionist change, i.e. if Bush became president and appointed a real OC.

It would not have to be thrown out entirely. Kennedy voted to uphold the ban on “partial birth” abortion. He, and the other constructionists, approve of state legislated restrictions to abortion. Legislation after legislation can be presented to the SC which would wither federal protection of abortion away to virtually nothing. It does not take an offensive constructionist to allow this to happen.

I dunno about that, astorian. Just look at Kennedy’s voting record on issues like gay rights, etc. Not promising, as far as I am concerned. We may not see staggering judicial change at once, but I have little doubt that it would happen.

MR

Maeglin wrote:

“After all, the restrictions are so strong in so many states and abortion clinics are so few that approximately 80% of American women don’t have access to abortions in the first place, regardless of RvW.”

Where did you get the 80% figure? I find it difficult to believe, but if you could provide a cite I would appreciate it.

John