# Could school personel be charged with murder in this case? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 12, 2017, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-school-personel-be-charged-with-murder-in-this-case/801405 "2017-11-12T05:29:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2017, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-school-personel-be-charged-with-murder-in-this-case/801405/1 "2017-11-12T05:29:11Z")
[CASE](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/09/nyregion/boy-3-allergic-to-dairy-dies-after-eating-grilled-cheese-at-pre-k.html) Basically a child that they knew had a severe dairy allergy, was given a grilled cheese sandwich which sent the child into convulsions and the school, instead of calling 911, called the childs mother. The mother came to the school and rushed the kid to the hospital but the child later died. Could the school personnel be charged with negligent homicide? ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2017, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-school-personel-be-charged-with-murder-in-this-case/801405/2 "2017-11-12T13:22:49Z")
I read this story, and I’m convinced the worker did not know that cheese = dairy. S/He probably thought dairy meant milk only. Seriously. One ought to be able to assume that an adult would know what “dairy” is, but there is a lot if ignorance around. Having said that, I didn’t get as far as the part where the center didn’t call 911. They should have had a clear policy in place regarding health emergencies. A child with a fever? Okay, call parents. But convulsions? ☹ As to your original question, it does seem possible. A lot of balls were dropped here–training for staff, emergency procedures, awareness of the child’s allergies AND WHAT THAT MEANT IN EVERYDAY LIFE. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2017, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-school-personel-be-charged-with-murder-in-this-case/801405/3 "2017-11-12T13:43:28Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > [CASE](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/09/nyregion/boy-3-allergic-to-dairy-dies-after-eating-grilled-cheese-at-pre-k.html) > > Basically a child that they knew had a severe dairy allergy, was given a grilled cheese sandwich which sent the child into convulsions and the school, instead of calling 911, called the childs mother. The mother came to the school and rushed the kid to the hospital but the child later died. > > Could the school personnel be charged with negligent homicide? Anaphylactic shock, not convulsions. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2017, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-school-personel-be-charged-with-murder-in-this-case/801405/4 "2017-11-12T13:58:23Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > As to your original question, it does seem possible. A lot of balls were dropped here–training for staff, emergency procedures, awareness of the child’s allergies AND WHAT THAT MEANT IN EVERYDAY LIFE. ☹ It also mentions the non-availability of an Epipen - up from $47 (each) in 2007 to $600 now (per pair) in the USA (and contrasting with $14 bought in bulk by the NHS and $60 over-the-counter in the UK). A simple injection at school would have saved him. [Schools allowed to keep spare allergy pens under new law](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-41443337) ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2017, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-school-personel-be-charged-with-murder-in-this-case/801405/5 "2017-11-12T14:21:45Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > It also mentions the non-availability of an Epipen - up from $47 (each) in 2007 to $600 now (per pair) in the USA (and contrasting with $14 bought in bulk by the NHS and $60 over-the-counter in the UK). > > A simple injection at school would have saved him. > > [Schools allowed to keep spare allergy pens under new law](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-41443337) An Epipen only buys some time. Considering that not only did the staff not recognize the need for EMS, neither did the mother. It’s still possible an injection wouldn’t have been enough depending on how much time was wasted. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2017, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-school-personel-be-charged-with-murder-in-this-case/801405/6 "2017-11-12T14:49:50Z")
An Epipen was the obvious immediate response. > [@running\_coach](#): > > Considering that not only did the staff not recognize the need for EMS, neither did the mother. Well, we know a phone call is a lot cheaper but that’s about all. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2017, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-school-personel-be-charged-with-murder-in-this-case/801405/7 "2017-11-12T14:56:10Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > \*\*An Epipen was the obvious immediate response. \*\* > Well, we know a phone call is a lot cheaper but that’s about all. [From here.](https://www.drugs.com/epipen-auto-injector.html) > [@](#): > > EpiPen is used to treat severe allergic reactions (anaphylaxis). > > Seek emergency medical attention even after you use EpiPen to treat a severe allergic reaction. **The effects of EpiPen may wear off after 10 or 20 minutes.** You will need to receive further treatment and observation. Calling 9-1-1 is still the next/simultaneous step. You’re buying time for EMS to arrive, transport and supply life support as needed. It’s a failure that the staff didn’t recognize a life-threatening condition. It’s a failure that the mother, knowing her child had an allergy, didn’t know enough to call 9-1-1 rather than attempt transport herself. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2017, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-school-personel-be-charged-with-murder-in-this-case/801405/8 "2017-11-12T16:54:36Z")
I wonder how these parents still feel safe sending such kids to school. Didn’t a kid with a peanut allergy die in school a while back too, like this? Knowing the immense potential for exposure to the allergen (hundreds of kids, dozens of substances, nobody can remember everything,) how do they have peace of mind? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2017, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-school-personel-be-charged-with-murder-in-this-case/801405/9 "2017-11-12T17:06:48Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I wonder how these parents still feel safe sending such kids to school. Didn’t a kid with a peanut allergy die in school a while back too, like this? Knowing the immense potential for exposure to the allergen (hundreds of kids, dozens of substances, nobody can remember everything,) how do they have peace of mind? Ask if the staff is First Aid/CPR/AED certified. Are there AEDs at the location and does the staff have access? Does the school have Epipens(or other brands)? Does the staff have access? ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2017, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-school-personel-be-charged-with-murder-in-this-case/801405/10 "2017-11-12T17:08:13Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Ask if the staff is First Aid/CPR/AED certified. Are there AEDs at the location and does the staff have access? Does the school have Epipens(or other brands)? Does the staff have access? And does everyone know that cheese = diary. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2017, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-school-personel-be-charged-with-murder-in-this-case/801405/11 "2017-11-12T17:13:33Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > And does everyone know that cheese = diary. :dubious: That doesn’t matter as long as they can recognize and properly treat anaphylaxis. Granted, it would be nice if they _don’t_ cause the emergency but the treatment is the same whatever the cause. When I’ve taken first aid courses, a review of common allergens was part of the anaphylaxis section. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2017, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-school-personel-be-charged-with-murder-in-this-case/801405/12 "2017-11-12T17:19:46Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I wonder how these parents still feel safe sending such kids to school. Didn’t a kid with a peanut allergy die in school a while back too, like this? Knowing the immense potential for exposure to the allergen (hundreds of kids, dozens of substances, nobody can remember everything,) how do they have peace of mind? WTF do you think allergic people do when they grow up? Stay at home? Here’s the problem - if you keep the kid at home they will never learn to deal with the hazards in real life. For better or worse, life-threatening allergies are NOT considered a disability as far as getting payments in lieu of work. At some point, you have to let these kids/people out of the house to get an education, get jobs, and get a life. People with potentially life-threatening allergies (and I happen to be one of them) risk encountering their problem item _every day_. “Keep them at home” is NOT a viable strategy. I could go into a long dissertation about what needs to be done with the kids, the parents, and the schools but I don’t feel like writing it at the moment, and I’m not sure anyone is actually interested. I’ll do it on request, though. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2017, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-school-personel-be-charged-with-murder-in-this-case/801405/13 "2017-11-12T17:22:11Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Ask if the staff is First Aid/CPR/AED certified. Are there AEDs at the location and does the staff have access? Does the school have Epipens(or other brands)? **Does the staff have access?** The access question was always the worst problem when I was growing up. It did no good to inform all the adults in the camp that I was allergic when the needed medications were kept locked up in a “nurse’s office” open only part time hours and I was 5 miles away on a hike or it was the middle of the night. My parents finally got it arranged that I could carry my allergy meds on my person at all times which largely solved the access problem, but geez, I can only imagine it’s gotten worse. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2017, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-school-personel-be-charged-with-murder-in-this-case/801405/14 "2017-11-12T17:22:37Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > I read this story, and I’m convinced the worker did not know that cheese = dairy. S/He probably thought dairy meant milk only. I immediately assumed the same. It has (almost) stopped surprising me how many people are so ignorant about even the most basic facts. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2017, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-school-personel-be-charged-with-murder-in-this-case/801405/15 "2017-11-12T17:59:53Z")
Doesn’t surprise me - I landed in the ER on Halloween 1995 because some ditz didn’t know that ketchup contains tomatoes (to which I am deathly allergic). ---
**Author:** ![Mnemnosyne](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mnemnosyne/32/3347_2.png) [@Mnemnosyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mnemnosyne)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2017, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-school-personel-be-charged-with-murder-in-this-case/801405/16 "2017-11-12T18:33:07Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > I read this story, and I’m convinced the worker did not know that cheese = dairy. S/He probably thought dairy meant milk only. Seriously. One ought to be able to assume that an adult would know what “dairy” is, but there is a lot if ignorance around. If that’s the case, then I would totally agree with a charge of negligent homicide (at least in my non-lawyer understanding of the term ‘negligent homicide’). Not knowing what ‘dairy’ is seems grossly negligent on the face of it to me. To then compound that with not calling for immediate medical assistance definitely consists of a complete failure to take reasonable actions to prevent a death, which considering they caused the situation in the first place, seems to make for a really good description of being both negligent and a homicide (or manslaughter; is ‘negligent manslaughter’ a thing? Cause that actually sounds like it fits a little better, since to me, ‘homicide’ implies some level of intention). To not hold them accountable for failing to understand basic, **common** language (it would be different if it were some obscure terminology or word that’s not in common use) seems little different than not holding someone accountable for any number of obvious things no reasonable person would fail to understand. It appears to me somewhat along the lines of, say, starting a campfire with a pile of charcoal briquets and having it turn into a forest fire, then claiming ignorance of the fact that the leaves around the charcoal might catch fire, or ignorance of the fact that the forest itself might burn, because only the charcoal is supposed to burn! It’s not reasonable to be so ignorant unless one is genuinely mentally deficient, in which case it doesn’t seem appropriate to entrust such a person with the care of children. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2017, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-school-personel-be-charged-with-murder-in-this-case/801405/17 "2017-11-12T18:47:44Z")
“Murder” suggests a conscious effort to end someone else’s life. I do not think that is the case here. Maybe negligent homicide? Different states have different names and lines drawn for this stuff. Here is one definition. I’m not sure if this is how it is implemented everywhere or even if this site has the right of it: > [@](#): > > The first element that a state must prove in a negligent homicide case is that the defendant was aware of an unjustifiable risk associated with the events that led to the death of another person. For example, if the victim and the defendant were playing with a gun, and the victim was shot but the defendant refused to call for medical help, the defendant could be charged with negligent homicide because most people know the risks associated with a gunshot wound. When the defendant refused to seek medical attention, he disregarded an unjustifiable risk, which was the possible death of his friend. > > The second element that the state must prove is an act or omission. Many states require an affirmative act to demonstrate causation. For example, if a defendant drives 50 miles per hour in a school zone as children are being released from school, and then hits and kills a child who is crossing the street, there is a direct cause and effect relationship between the defendant’s actions and the death of the child. Some states do not require an overt act, merely an omission. Using the gun example, if the victim accidentally shot himself, the state would have to show that the victim would have lived but for the defendant’s negligence in not seeking medical treatment. > > The final main element is to show causation. This is a direct link between the negligent action and death of an individual. For example, using the gunshot case, the state must show that if the defendant had not refused to obtain medical treatment, the victim would have survived. > > SOURCE: [What is negligent homicide?](https://criminal-law.freeadvice.com/criminal-law/violent_crimes/negligent-homicide.htm) ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2017, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-school-personel-be-charged-with-murder-in-this-case/801405/18 "2017-11-12T19:14:11Z")
The OP said: > [@Urbanredneck](#): > > … > Could the school personnel be charged with negligent homicide? Maybe you just read the title of the thread but not the whole OP? > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > …Maybe negligent homicide?.. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2017, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-school-personel-be-charged-with-murder-in-this-case/801405/19 "2017-11-12T19:18:36Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > The OP said: > > Maybe you just read the title of the thread but not the whole OP? Guess so. I did read the OP but somehow not the last line (or it just did not register somehow). :smack: To be fair murder is a whole different thing from negligent homicide so REALLY bad thread title. Murder must have premeditation. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2017, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-school-personel-be-charged-with-murder-in-this-case/801405/20 "2017-11-12T19:38:16Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Guess so. I did read the OP but somehow not the last line (or it just did not register somehow). :smack: > > To be fair murder is a whole different thing from negligent homicide so REALLY bad thread title. Murder must have premeditation. Yes, I agree. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-school-personel-be-charged-with-murder-in-this-case/801405.md?page=2)