# Could Serena Willams beat any of the top 20 men. **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [August 27, 2013, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-serena-willams-beat-any-of-the-top-20-men/667286 "2013-08-27T10:20:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-serena-willams-beat-any-of-the-top-20-men/667286/21 "2013-08-28T00:57:46Z")
> [@notfrommensa](#): > > I really would like to see Serena play a semi competitive 55 yr old John McEnroe. > > But there is no way that she beats any man playing the US Open this week. We were just discussing this elsewhere. I’d be that McEnroe could beat her now. If he couldn’t, Jim Courier probably could. Andre Agassi would totally kill her, assuming he was playing somewhat regularly. ---
**Author:** ![installLSC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/54ee81/32.png) [@installLSC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/installLSC)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-serena-willams-beat-any-of-the-top-20-men/667286/22 "2013-08-28T01:52:34Z")
[Here’s an Sports Illustrated article from 1984](http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1122588/2/index.htm) about a similar challenge to Martina Navratilova. Note that Navratilova would only claim she _might_ beat the 100th ranked men’s player, while Chris Evert claimed Martina would lose to the top 1000 men. Probably a women’s player could do better than that today, but good enough to beat a top 20 male player? Doubtful at best. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-serena-willams-beat-any-of-the-top-20-men/667286/23 "2013-08-28T01:59:26Z")
I have to insist: it’s not doubtful. She’d have no chance. ---
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-serena-willams-beat-any-of-the-top-20-men/667286/24 "2013-08-28T02:49:36Z")
I’d go further and say that no woman could beat any of the world’s top 20 men in any non-judged individual sport that doesn’t involve horses. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-serena-willams-beat-any-of-the-top-20-men/667286/25 "2013-08-28T03:22:28Z")
> [@lisiate](#): > > I’d go further and say that no woman could beat any of the world’s top 20 men in any non-judged individual sport that doesn’t involve horses. I’d disagree with that. I’d think a woman might have a chance in a shooting or archery competition. And there’s Danica Patrick, who is reasonably competitive with men in various types of car racing. ---
**Author:** ![notfrommensa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f14d63/32.png) [@notfrommensa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/notfrommensa)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-serena-willams-beat-any-of-the-top-20-men/667286/26 "2013-08-28T03:35:20Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > We were just discussing this elsewhere. I’d be that McEnroe could beat her now. > > If he couldn’t, Jim Courier probably could. Andre Agassi would totally kill her, assuming he was playing somewhat regularly. McEnroe is 54 and its been 20 yrs since he played a Grand Slam event and almost 30 yrs since he won one. Courier and Agassi are at least 10 yrs younger than McEnroe. I am talking about someone from McEnroe’s generation, like Lendl, or Wilander, or Edberg. ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-serena-willams-beat-any-of-the-top-20-men/667286/27 "2013-08-28T03:42:00Z")
Jimmy Connors might bet her but that says more about him then her. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-serena-willams-beat-any-of-the-top-20-men/667286/28 "2013-08-28T03:46:26Z")
Same rules? 6-0 6-0 Battle of the sexes rules? 6-0 6-0 (maybe a 6-1 on a very lucky day). ditto for any top 100. Top 200 maybe 6-1 6-1 on BofS rules. ---
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-serena-willams-beat-any-of-the-top-20-men/667286/29 "2013-08-28T04:10:52Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > I’d disagree with that. I’d think a woman might have a chance in a shooting or archery competition. > > And there’s Danica Patrick, who is reasonably competitive with men in various types of car racing. Yeah, good points there, I went a little too far. I’ll amend my sweeping statement to: “I’d go further and say that no woman could beat any of the world’s top 20 men in any non-judged individual sport that doesn’t involve horses, cars or shooting at targets.” ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-serena-willams-beat-any-of-the-top-20-men/667286/30 "2013-08-28T08:14:56Z")
> [@lisiate](#): > > Yeah, good points there, I went a little too far. I’ll amend my sweeping statement to: > > “I’d go further and say that no woman could beat any of the world’s top 20 men in any non-judged individual sport that doesn’t involve horses, cars or shooting at targets.” I think the more you remove the athletic element, the closer some of the women may get but overall I very much doubt any women in any sport is consistently top 20. Motorsport is a tricky one. You’d have to control for equipment in order to know how much gender is having an effect. Michelle Mouton is a great driver and certainly top 20 when driving the Quattro but would she still be so high if all other drivers had access to them? who knows. Similarly I could put Danica Patrick in an MP4/4 and she’d be regular podium but that would not make her a top 20 driver. Seeing as she isn’t even top in her branch of motorsport never mind F1. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-serena-willams-beat-any-of-the-top-20-men/667286/31 "2013-08-28T09:22:25Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Same rules? 6-0 6-0 > > Battle of the sexes rules? 6-0 6-0 (maybe a 6-1 on a very lucky day). > > ditto for any top 100. > > Top 200 maybe 6-1 6-1 on BofS rules. What were the rules in the Riggs/King match? I have a very dim memory that the doubles alleys (those thin sections that make the court wider for a doubles match) were in play on Riggs’s side of the net, but nothing I can find confirms it. One site says Riggs only got one serve, but the ESPN article refers to him double-faulting during the match. > [@lisiate](#): > > Yeah, good points there, I went a little too far. I’ll amend my sweeping statement to: > > “I’d go further and say that no woman could beat any of the world’s top 20 men in any non-judged individual sport that doesn’t involve horses, cars or shooting at targets.” I’ve read somewhere that women have an advantage in ultra-long-distance swimming. I’m not sure where the break-even point would be; the fastest cross-Channel times seem to be held by men. One site says that the women’s advantage is only in cold water. ---
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-serena-willams-beat-any-of-the-top-20-men/667286/32 "2013-08-28T09:29:44Z")
I’ve read but could never find a solid cite that Lindsey Davenport, in her prime, used to practice tennis with her investment banker husband and claimed that she was not even as good as him despite her being the #1 ranked tennis player in America and him being a hobbyist who doesn’t even compete professionally. ---
**Author:** ![fanganga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/58f4c7/32.png) [@fanganga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fanganga)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-serena-willams-beat-any-of-the-top-20-men/667286/33 "2013-08-28T09:35:22Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > What were the rules in the Riggs/King match? I have a very dim memory that the doubles alleys (those thin sections that make the court wider for a doubles match) were in play on Riggs’s side of the net, but nothing I can find confirms it. One site says Riggs only got one serve, but the ESPN article refers to him double-faulting during the match. The wikipedia article claims that the rules weren’t modified for the Riggs/King match, but doesn’t give a cite. It does describe rules changes in the Navratilova/Connors match. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-serena-willams-beat-any-of-the-top-20-men/667286/34 "2013-08-28T13:25:01Z")
> [@lisiate](#): > > “I’d go further and say that no woman could beat any of the world’s top 20 men in any non-judged individual sport that doesn’t involve horses, cars or shooting at targets.” Endurance sports like Ironman Triathlon would be close. At the last world championships the first woman finished in the 40’s overall. There have been higher finishes at other events. I suspect you’d see even better results at some of the 100 mile races, but the fields for those sports are quiet small overall. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-serena-willams-beat-any-of-the-top-20-men/667286/35 "2013-08-28T19:14:12Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > What were the rules in the Riggs/King match? I have a very dim memory that the doubles alleys (those thin sections that make the court wider for a doubles match) were in play on Riggs’s side of the net, but nothing I can find confirms it. One site says Riggs only got one serve, but the ESPN article refers to him double-faulting during the match. > [@fanganga](#): > > The wikipedia article claims that the rules weren’t modified for the Riggs/King match, but doesn’t give a cite. It does describe rules changes in the Navratilova/Connors match. Massive brainfart on my part. I confused with the Connors/Martina match. ---
**Author:** ![That\_Don\_Guy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/that_don_guy/32/538_2.png) [@That\_Don\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/That_Don_Guy)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-serena-willams-beat-any-of-the-top-20-men/667286/36 "2013-08-28T19:37:15Z")
> [@installLSC](#): > > [Here’s an Sports Illustrated article from 1984](http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1122588/2/index.htm) about a similar challenge to Martina Navratilova. Note that Navratilova would only claim she _might_ beat the 100th ranked men’s player, while Chris Evert claimed Martina would lose to the top 1000 men. I vaguely recall somebody - Navratilova? Graf? - who said that they had played a man ranked somewhere around 100-120 at the time under normal rules and lost big time, but could win occasionally if the man was limited to one serve and the alleys on the man’s side were in play. The main problem a woman would have is with the speed of the man’s serve (which is why the “one serve for the man” rule is usually mentioned). I was surprised how easily Connors beat Navratilova even with that handicap. > [@Telemark](#): > > Endurance sports like Ironman Triathlon would be close. At the last world championships the first woman finished in the 40’s overall. There have been higher finishes at other events. I suspect you’d see even better results at some of the 100 mile races, but the fields for those sports are quiet small overall. Women tend to do well in ultraendurance events - wasn’t the record for swimming the English Channel held by a woman at some point? I was surprised that women never do nearly as well as the men in the cycling Race Across America. ---
**Author:** ![Dahu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dahu/32/3416_2.png) [@Dahu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dahu)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-serena-willams-beat-any-of-the-top-20-men/667286/37 "2013-08-28T20:53:30Z")
Paula Radcliffe set the women’s world marathon record in London in 2003. I’m not sure but I don’t think she was racing directly against the men, but her time would have been good enough for 16th in the overall race. So not too bad. ---
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-serena-willams-beat-any-of-the-top-20-men/667286/38 "2013-08-28T22:52:17Z")
Her time was[2:15:25](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_winners_of_the_London_Marathon). The winner of the men’s race came home in 2:07:56, and you’re right Radcliffe’s time would have placed [her in 16th](http://www.marathonguide.com/results/browse.cfm?MIDD=16030413&Gen=M&Begin=1&End=100&Max=23893)had she raced with the men. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-serena-willams-beat-any-of-the-top-20-men/667286/39 "2013-08-28T22:58:36Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I have to insist: it’s not doubtful. She’d have no chance. X10 Marley has it. I think folks may not realize how unbelievable the top 20 men are. The ladies would have no shot at all. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-serena-willams-beat-any-of-the-top-20-men/667286/40 "2013-08-28T23:10:53Z")
Just what is the average serve speed of men’s tennis vs. women’s? I have a hard time believing that there can be that much of a difference in speed and that it would be that difficult for a woman like Serena, who is used to returning serves and knows all about tennis, to have no chance if it was just a tad faster than she’s used to. I would have guessed that, like video games, the men would have an advantage in strength but the women would be faster [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-serena-willams-beat-any-of-the-top-20-men/667286.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-serena-willams-beat-any-of-the-top-20-men/667286.md?page=3)