# Could Serena Willams beat any of the top 20 men. **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [August 27, 2013, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-serena-willams-beat-any-of-the-top-20-men/667286 "2013-08-27T10:20:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-serena-willams-beat-any-of-the-top-20-men/667286/41 "2013-08-29T00:06:43Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Just what is the average serve speed of men’s tennis vs. women’s? I don’t think there’s a simple answer to this. There’s just too much variance for a lot of different reasons. But to use so easy-to-get stats: the record hardest serves are 156 mph (men) vs 129 mph (women), and at this year’s US Open, the fastest serves are 145 mph vs. 120 mph. To dig a little deeper, we can compare average serve speeds for a full match and try to pick two similarly ranked players. I was going to use the #32 seeds because that’d seems like a decent baseline for a solid but not amazing player, but right now the site isn’t letting me get those numbers. So I’ll use the #5 seeds instead: Tomas Berdych had an average serve speed of 121 mph in his first match. Li Na averaged 103 mph. (They both won.) > [@](#): > > I have a hard time believing that there can be that much of a difference in speed There is. The service motion is pretty similar to throwing a pitch in baseball. I realize there isn’t a professional women’s baseball league comparable to MLB, but if there was, do you think the female pitchers would be throwing at the same velocity as male pitchers? > [@](#): > > and that it would be that difficult for a woman like Serena, who is used to returning serves and knows all about tennis, to have no chance if it was just a tad faster than she’s used to. It doesn’t look like a tad to me. It looks like 15% or 20%. > [@](#): > > I would have guessed that, like video games, the men would have an advantage in strength but the women would be faster If you are taller and more muscular, you’ll be faster. If you’re huge and muscular you can lose quickness, but that varies from person to person. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-serena-willams-beat-any-of-the-top-20-men/667286/42 "2013-08-29T00:06:51Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > I would have guessed that, like video games, the men would have an advantage in strength but the women would be faster I think it’s far more likely that the men are both faster and stronger (and have greater stamina). If Serena played in the men’s bracket, I think she would basically be like a highly skilled but shorter than average, slower than average, weaker than average, and less conditioned than average men’s player. And not by a little bit. I think the smallest and weakest man in the top 100 is probably significantly stronger and more powerful than Serena. Not that Serena isn’t amazing- she is. She’s my favorite tennis player of all time. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-serena-willams-beat-any-of-the-top-20-men/667286/43 "2013-08-29T00:10:25Z")
Considering that Serena Williams would crush \> 99.99% of men on the planet (even among those men who have played tennis regularly before), it’s not much of a criticism to say that she wouldn’t have much of a chance against the top 20 (or top 100) men’s tennis players. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-serena-willams-beat-any-of-the-top-20-men/667286/44 "2013-08-29T00:22:56Z")
As another data point, golf is a game where small men like Rory McIlroy can not only win, but dominate, if they have exceptional skill and coordination. So you would think that a woman would have a chance against a mediocre PGA tour player. But the last time a woman made a cut (matched the 70th best score for 36 holes in a field of about 150) in a men’s PGA event was 1945. The fields that year were exceptionally weak because most of the players were in the service for WW2, and the woman was Babe Zaharias, arguably the greatest all-around woman athlete of all time. To be fair, it’s so obvious that they can’t do it that very few have tried it. Michelle Wie came close as an amateur, though, before she turned 16 and got too old to play well. Annika Sorenstam, who was far and away the best woman golfer in the world, tried against a slightly better field, and IIRC did not get very close. I might want to bet on Serena in an arm wrestling contest, though. And I would love to wrestle her in a vat of jello. Or even without the jello. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-serena-willams-beat-any-of-the-top-20-men/667286/45 "2013-08-29T00:26:49Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > And I would love to wrestle her in a vat of jello. Or even without the jello. There’s always room for jello. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-serena-willams-beat-any-of-the-top-20-men/667286/46 "2013-08-29T01:28:47Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Considering that Serena Williams would crush \> 99.99% of men on the planet (even among those men who have played tennis regularly before), it’s not much of a criticism to say that she wouldn’t have much of a chance against the top 20 (or top 100) men’s tennis players. It’s no criticism at all. She’s great, but women can not compete with men at the top levels. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-serena-willams-beat-any-of-the-top-20-men/667286/47 "2013-08-29T02:08:50Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Yes, but I think there is even more to it than that. Even in non-athletic “sports” like chess, bowling, and billiards, women tend to do much worse on average at the elite level than men. I think a lot of it is cultural too. For nearly every variable – height, weight, IQ, personality traits – males exhibit a greater variability from the mean than females. (IIRC, this is true of most all mammals) In most fields of human activity (minus those inherently slanted to favor one gender over the other), you’ll find the rule to be that the top performers are mostly male, and that the worst performers are also male. This is part of why more men are millionaires … and also why more men are homeless, in prison, or dead via suicide. Culture certainly may play into it, too, but even in a gender-blind society, it’s still the result you’d expect from genetics alone. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-serena-willams-beat-any-of-the-top-20-men/667286/48 "2013-08-29T02:24:14Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Yes, but I think there is even more to it than that. Even in non-athletic “sports” like chess, bowling, and billiards, women tend to do much worse on average at the elite level than men. I think a lot of it is cultural too. Take a sport like golf- you’d EXPECT that, since men tend to be bigger and stronger than women, the male pros would generally hit much longer drives than the women- and they do. But what often surprises people is how much better men are than women in the short game. You’d think women could putt or make chip shots as well as men, wouldn’t you? But they don’t. Why not? Who knows? Maybe the men spend a lot more time practicing, or maybe it’s something else. But the male advantage in golf is NOT due just to superior strength. ---
**Author:** ![notfrommensa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f14d63/32.png) [@notfrommensa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/notfrommensa)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-serena-willams-beat-any-of-the-top-20-men/667286/49 "2013-08-29T04:03:32Z")
> [@lisiate](#): > > Yeah, good points there, I went a little too far. I’ll amend my sweeping statement to: > > “I’d go further and say that no woman could beat any of the world’s top 20 men in any non-judged individual sport that doesn’t involve horses, cars or shooting at targets.” In 2004, 14 yr old Michelle Wie beat 25th ranked Adam Scott and tied 11th rank Stuart Appleby at the PGA Tour tournament in Hawaii. 14 years old. She beat about 45 different men golfers. ---
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-serena-willams-beat-any-of-the-top-20-men/667286/50 "2013-08-29T04:37:23Z")
Let’s have a look at [the leaderboard](http://sports.yahoo.com/golf/pga/leaderboard/2004/7) for that one - Wie didn’t make the cut and was tied for 80th place. Still an amazing result. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-serena-willams-beat-any-of-the-top-20-men/667286/51 "2013-08-29T11:25:42Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Considering that Serena Williams would crush \> 99.99% of men on the planet (even among those men who have played tennis regularly before), it’s not much of a criticism to say that she wouldn’t have much of a chance against the top 20 (or top 100) men’s tennis players. Beating people who don’t really play tennis is no achievement. If you consider post-pubescent males who play tennis competitively, she is not going to beat 99% of them. She’ll probably clean up on the High School level, maybe be competitive on the low end Collegiate/Adult Amateur level, and be nowhere on the Professional level. Men are simply too explosive athletically. Where dunking is frightfully rare in women’s basketball, my crappy HS team had multiple players who could dunk in game situations. Tennis rewards size, strength and speed, the older men who play competitively will have a big advantage over her, even if she has the skill advantage. ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-serena-willams-beat-any-of-the-top-20-men/667286/52 "2013-08-29T17:51:12Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > As another data point, golf is a game where small men like Rory McIlroy can not only win, but dominate, if they have exceptional skill and coordination. So you would think that a woman would have a chance against a mediocre PGA tour player. But the last time a woman made a cut (matched the 70th best score for 36 holes in a field of about 150) in a men’s PGA event was 1945. (snip) > > To be fair, it’s so obvious that they can’t do it that very few have tried it. Michelle Wie came close as an amateur, though, before she turned 16 and got too old to play well. Annika Sorenstam, who was far and away the best woman golfer in the world, tried against a slightly better field, and IIRC did not get very close. First of all, there is definitely an advantage to be able to drive a ball longer and harder. So men do have a natural advantage in the overall game of golf. Take out the driving, and I’m sure that the disparity in talent narrows significantly. Also, it’s only been in the last 20 years or so that women have been given the same opportunity to play golf. For centuries, it was a male-only sport because golf courses wouldn’t allow women to play. And if they did, it was one morning per week aka “ladies day.” So it’s no wonder that men are better at golf than women. ---
**Author:** ![Labrador\_Deceiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7c8e57/32.png) [@Labrador\_Deceiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labrador_Deceiver)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-serena-willams-beat-any-of-the-top-20-men/667286/53 "2013-08-29T18:27:02Z")
> [@PunditLisa](#): > > Take out the driving, and I’m sure that the disparity in talent narrows significantly. Maybe, but I doubt it. Male golfers will always be able to use more accurate clubs due to their ability to hit it farther. They’ll be hitting a wedge when their female counterpart is hitting a 7 iron. ---
**Author:** ![Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Living_Well_Is_Best_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-serena-willams-beat-any-of-the-top-20-men/667286/54 "2013-08-29T18:38:33Z")
The antidote about Lindsay Davenport is true. She is married to an ex college player who would easily beat when he was years past his prime and she was number 1. I was a decent sectionally ranked junior. Guys at my level could win sets off a girl who played on the pro tour. She would play them when she is home for practice. Her highest ranking was around 100. High enough to get direct entry into Grand Slams. ---
**Author:** ![That\_Don\_Guy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/that_don_guy/32/538_2.png) [@That\_Don\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/That_Don_Guy)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-serena-willams-beat-any-of-the-top-20-men/667286/55 "2013-08-29T19:07:08Z")
> [@PunditLisa](#): > > First of all, there is definitely an advantage to be able to drive a ball longer and harder. So men do have a natural advantage in the overall game of golf. Take out the driving, and I’m sure that the disparity in talent narrows significantly. Isn’t this pretty much the point of the Wendy’s Three-Tour Challenge? (The women have won 5 of the 21 events.) Then again, it also depends on the course. A long Par 5 that can be reached in 2 by the better golfers would require a sizable distance shortening for the ladies in order to be able to do the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-serena-willams-beat-any-of-the-top-20-men/667286/56 "2013-08-29T21:20:23Z")
> [@Living\_Well\_Is\_Best\_Revenge](#): > > The antidote about Lindsay Davenport is true. She is married to an ex college player who would easily beat when he was years past his prime and she was number 1. > > I was a decent sectionally ranked junior. Guys at my level could win sets off a girl who played on the pro tour. She would play them when she is home for practice. Her highest ranking was around 100. High enough to get direct entry into Grand Slams. Do you have a citation for that anecdote? I’ve been trying to find a confirmation for ages but could never find anyone talking about it on the record. Also, in 2006, the US Women’s Ice Hockey team, one of the two best in the world, [was beaten by a team of high school boys](http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/news/story?id=2281644). ---
**Author:** ![Valgard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/7feea3/32.png) [@Valgard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valgard)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2013, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-serena-willams-beat-any-of-the-top-20-men/667286/57 "2013-08-29T21:49:31Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Endurance sports like Ironman Triathlon would be close. At the last world championships the first woman finished in the 40’s overall. There have been higher finishes at other events. I suspect you’d see even better results at some of the 100 mile races, but the fields for those sports are quiet small overall. Yup, women have won 100 mile races outright in mixed fields and often place highly. For example Pam Reed won the Badwater ultramarathon (135 miles through Death Valley, in the summer) twice in a row (2002 and 2003). Ann Trason took 2nd in the Leadville 100 and there are certainly other examples. More the exception than the rule, sure, but certainly not unheard of. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2013, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-serena-willams-beat-any-of-the-top-20-men/667286/58 "2013-08-30T00:41:57Z")
> [@Valgard](#): > > Yup, women have won 100 mile races outright in mixed fields and often place highly. For example Pam Reed won the Badwater ultramarathon (135 miles through Death Valley, in the summer) twice in a row (2002 and 2003). Ann Trason took 2nd in the Leadville 100 and there are certainly other examples. More the exception than the rule, sure, but certainly not unheard of. Swimming the English Channel is an interesting case: for a while a man held the all-time record, and then a woman, and then a man, and then a woman, and then a man, and then a woman, and then a man, and – well, look, an edge in strength is great, but so is combining plenty of stamina with plenty of buoyancy. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2013, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-serena-willams-beat-any-of-the-top-20-men/667286/59 "2013-08-30T09:02:46Z")
> [@PunditLisa](#): > > First of all, there is definitely an advantage to be able to drive a ball longer and harder. So men do have a natural advantage in the overall game of golf. Take out the driving, and I’m sure that the disparity in talent narrows significantly. Sure, but wrong. It actually widens significantly. > **[Matthew Rudy: Why Women Putt Worse Than Men](https://www.golfdigest.com/story/putting-matthew-rudy)** > > Experts debate the stats, the empirical evidence and the future [http://www.oobgolf.com/content/fore+play/stats/1-957-Male\_vs\_Female\_Short\_Game\_Stats.html](http://www.oobgolf.com/content/fore+play/stats/1-957-Male_vs_Female_Short_Game_Stats.html) > [@](#): > > Also, it’s only been in the last 20 years or so that women have been given the same opportunity to play golf. For centuries, it was a male-only sport because golf courses wouldn’t allow women to play. And if they did, it was one morning per week aka “ladies day.” So it’s no wonder that men are better at golf than women. That’s why Tiger Woods does so well, of course, because of the historical black domination of the sport. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2013, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-serena-willams-beat-any-of-the-top-20-men/667286/60 "2013-08-30T09:10:55Z")
> [@That\_Don\_Guy](#): > > Women tend to do well in ultraendurance events - wasn’t the record for swimming the English Channel held by a woman at some point? I was surprised that women never do nearly as well as the men in the cycling Race Across America. It is a woman who has swum the Channel on the most occasions, but not the shortest time. A man has done it in 6:55, a woman in 7:25. Half an hour is quite a big difference. There are also records for two- and three-way crossings, with men even further ahead. I can find no record of a woman ever holding the record for fastest overall crossing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-serena-willams-beat-any-of-the-top-20-men/667286.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-serena-willams-beat-any-of-the-top-20-men/667286.md?page=4)