# Could somebody whose status as a natural-born citizen cannot be verified become US President? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 16, 2013, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-somebody-whose-status-as-a-natural-born-citizen-cannot-be-verified-become-us-president/647377 "2013-01-16T13:38:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2013, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-somebody-whose-status-as-a-natural-born-citizen-cannot-be-verified-become-us-president/647377/41 "2013-01-17T04:02:51Z")
Why would there be a question about McCain’s eligibility? The law specifically indicates that he, along with every other person in his situation, is recognized as a citizen at birth. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2013, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-somebody-whose-status-as-a-natural-born-citizen-cannot-be-verified-become-us-president/647377/42 "2013-01-17T04:44:59Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Why would there be a question about McCain’s eligibility? The law specifically indicates that he, along with every other person in his situation, is recognized as a citizen at birth. No it doesn’t. The specific clause says: > [@](#): > > (a) Any person born in the Canal Zone on or after February 26, 1904, and whether before or after the effective date of this chapter, whose father or mother or both at the time of the birth of such person was or is a citizen of the United States, is declared to be a citizen of the United States. It retroactively made McCain a citizen, but it did not declare that he was a citizen at birth. And in fact he did not qualify as a citizen at the time of his birth, something that was implicitly recognized by the need to pass a law in the first place. If one takes the position that a “natural born citizen” has to have been a citizen from the moment of his birth, then McCain is not one. On the other hand, if you maintain “natural born citizen” means someone who is qualified for citizenship _by the circumstances of his birth_, rather than by later naturalization, then McCain could qualify. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2013, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-somebody-whose-status-as-a-natural-born-citizen-cannot-be-verified-become-us-president/647377/43 "2013-01-17T04:50:06Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Why would there be a question about McCain’s eligibility? The law specifically indicates that he, along with every other person in his situation, is recognized as a citizen at birth. Because it didn’t say that he was a citizen until after he was born, and “natural born citizen” is too vague for situations like that. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2013, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-somebody-whose-status-as-a-natural-born-citizen-cannot-be-verified-become-us-president/647377/44 "2013-01-17T06:26:09Z")
Looks to me like the wording in effect recognizes the man as being born a citizen at birth. Doesn’t matter that the law was enacted after the birth. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2013, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-somebody-whose-status-as-a-natural-born-citizen-cannot-be-verified-become-us-president/647377/45 "2013-01-17T06:33:49Z")
That doesn’t eliminate the problem of “natural born citizen” having fuzzy edges. John McCain is a lot closer to the edge than someone obviously born in the United States like Barack Obama. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2013, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-somebody-whose-status-as-a-natural-born-citizen-cannot-be-verified-become-us-president/647377/46 "2013-01-17T13:15:04Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > It retroactively made McCain a citizen, but it did not declare that he was a citizen at birth. It retroactively made him a citizen _from birth_. That means that, _by law_, he’s a citizen from birth. > [@](#): > > And in fact he did not qualify as a citizen at the time of his birth, something that was implicitly recognized by the need to pass a law in the first place. Well, if that nifty new law that came into effect after his birth that made him a citizen from birth had never come into effect, then of course the man wouldn’t’ve been considered a citizen from birth. > [@](#): > > If one takes the position that a “natural born citizen” has to have been a citizen from the moment of his birth, then McCain is not one. On the other hand, if you maintain “natural born citizen” means someone who is qualified for citizenship _by the circumstances of his birth_, rather than by later naturalization, then McCain could qualify. I’m the one that take the position that someone is a citizen from birth if the laws that apply to his citizenship status make him a citizen from birth regardless of when the laws applying to him were passed. By the way, you do know the man was never naturalized and yet he became a commissioned officer in the United States Navy. Care to guess what the citizenship requirement to be a commissioned officer is? > [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > Because it didn’t say that he was a citizen until after he was born, and “natural born citizen” is too vague for situations like that. Well, there’s the whole deal that the laws applying to McCain’s citizenship really aren’t vague. And, yet again, it doesn’t matter when they were passed. What matters is if the law applies to him. > [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > That doesn’t eliminate the problem of “natural born citizen” having fuzzy edges. John McCain is a lot closer to the edge than someone obviously born in the United States like Barack Obama. Fuzzy? Both men are citizens of the US and neither one got naturalized. Gee, how’d that happen? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2013, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-somebody-whose-status-as-a-natural-born-citizen-cannot-be-verified-become-us-president/647377/47 "2013-01-17T13:42:22Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > By the way, you do know the man was never naturalized and yet he became a commissioned officer in the United States Navy. Care to guess what the citizenship requirement to be a commissioned officer is? The fact that he’s been granted citizenship retroactively by statute does not necessarily meet the constitutional standard of “natural born.” ---
**Author:** ![Alley\_Dweller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alley_dweller/32/430_2.png) [@Alley\_Dweller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alley_Dweller)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2013, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-somebody-whose-status-as-a-natural-born-citizen-cannot-be-verified-become-us-president/647377/48 "2013-01-17T14:10:10Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > It retroactively made him a citizen _from birth_. That means that, _by law_, he’s a citizen from birth. Let’s review the text of the law one more time. It says: \*(a) Any person born in the Canal Zone on or after February 26, 1904, and whether before or after the effective date of this chapter, whose father or mother or both at the time of the birth of such person was or is a citizen of the United States, is declared to be a citizen of the United States. \* Note it does not say that “is declared to have been a citizen of the United States.” It says he is (present tense) a citizen of the United States. I think it would be fair to say that he became a citizen of the United States by virtue of his birth in the Canal Zone. But I don’t see how that can be interpreted to say he was a citizen at the time of his birth. > [@](#): > > I’m the one that take the position that someone is a citizen from birth if the laws that apply to his citizenship status make him a citizen from birth regardless of when the laws applying to him were passed. By the way, you do know the man was never naturalized and yet he became a commissioned officer in the United States Navy. Care to guess what the citizenship requirement to be a commissioned officer is? As far as I can tell, the law only made him a citizen from the time the law was passed. It made him a citizen because he met the prerequisite of having been born in the Canal Zone after 1904. If you want me to guess about the citizenship requirements for being an officer, I will guess that they do not include being a “natural born” citizen. Nobody is disputing that he became a citizen when the new law was passed without any further action on his part. The only question is whether he is a “natural born” citizen. Since you bring up “naturalization” are you implying that the writers of the Constitution felt that the only way to be naturalized was to submit an application to the State Department and wait for them to issue a certificate? Does having a law passed by Congress declaring you to be a citizen not qualify as naturalization? Let’s say some Congressman slipped a clause into a routine bill that read “Vladimir Putin is declared to be a citizen of the United States.” Would Vladimir Putin be eligible to serve as President? Could a Congress consisting of supporters of Arnold Schwarzenegger do an end-run around the Constitution by passing a law that says “Arnold Schwarzenegger is declared to be a citizen of the United States”? Or, if you prefer, “Anyone born in Austria on July 30, 1947 is declared to be a citizen of the United States”? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2013, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-somebody-whose-status-as-a-natural-born-citizen-cannot-be-verified-become-us-president/647377/49 "2013-01-17T14:13:36Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > It retroactively made him a citizen _from birth_. That means that, _by law_, he’s a citizen from birth. The law says no such thing. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2013, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-somebody-whose-status-as-a-natural-born-citizen-cannot-be-verified-become-us-president/647377/50 "2013-01-17T14:20:05Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > By the way, you do know the man was never naturalized and yet he became a commissioned officer in the United States Navy. Care to guess what the citizenship requirement to be a commissioned officer is? Citizenship. Not natural born citizenship. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2013, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-somebody-whose-status-as-a-natural-born-citizen-cannot-be-verified-become-us-president/647377/51 "2013-01-17T16:13:05Z")
You can’t be a commissioned officer in the US without being a citizen. The man was not naturalized. He became a commissioned officer. Non-naturalized US citizen = natural born citizen. Good grief. ETA: A careful reading of the Declaration of Independence will show the reader that, yes, the Founding Fathers were rather aware of the concept of governmental procedures for naturalizing foreigners. ---
**Author:** ![Alley\_Dweller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alley_dweller/32/430_2.png) [@Alley\_Dweller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alley_Dweller)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2013, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-somebody-whose-status-as-a-natural-born-citizen-cannot-be-verified-become-us-president/647377/52 "2013-01-17T16:35:39Z")
So, today, Congress passes and the President signs a law that says “Vladimir Putin is declared to be a citizen of the United States.” Is Vladimir Putin a natural born citizen of the United States? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2013, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-somebody-whose-status-as-a-natural-born-citizen-cannot-be-verified-become-us-president/647377/53 "2013-01-17T16:45:48Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > You can’t be a commissioned officer in the US without being a citizen. The man was not naturalized. He became a commissioned officer. Non-naturalized US citizen = natural born citizen. We don’t know if he was naturalized or not. Congress did not specify whether it was naturalizing people covered by the Act or deeming them to be natural born citizens. You are also making an assumption when you assert that the Constitution recognizes only two classes of citizen. It recognizes two means of _attaining_ citizenship, but that’s not the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2013, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-somebody-whose-status-as-a-natural-born-citizen-cannot-be-verified-become-us-president/647377/54 "2013-01-17T17:03:54Z")
Actually, I think you are making a number of assumptions about the issue. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2013, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-somebody-whose-status-as-a-natural-born-citizen-cannot-be-verified-become-us-president/647377/55 "2013-01-17T17:09:19Z")
Would you care to point to one? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2013, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-somebody-whose-status-as-a-natural-born-citizen-cannot-be-verified-become-us-president/647377/56 "2013-01-18T15:54:49Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > It retroactively made him a citizen _from birth_. That means that, _by law_, he’s a citizen from birth. > > … > > Well, if that nifty new law that came into effect after his birth that made him a citizen from birth had never come into effect, then of course the man wouldn’t’ve been considered a citizen from birth. As has already been pointed out, the law nowhere says that anyone affected by the law is considered a citizen from birth, or is a natural born citizen. It merely recognizes that such persons are citizens. > [@](#): > > I’m the one that take the position that someone is a citizen from birth if the laws that apply to his citizenship status make him a citizen from birth regardless of when the laws applying to him were passed. You’re welcome to take that position, but since I assume you’re not a Supreme Court Justice your opinion has no legal standing with respect to the matter. To be clear, I don’t disagree that that viewpoint is possible, and in fact I think it is reasonable. [Many American Indians were not granted citizenship until 1924,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Citizenship_Act_of_1924) even though they were born in the US. They were not considered citizens at the time of their birth, but became citizens afterward. I believe it would be reasonable to consider them “natural born citizens,” but since none ever ran for President the question would be open. All I am saying that another interpretation, as shown by Professor Chin’s analysis, is possible. Therefore one cannot say, as a matter of settled Constitutional Law, that McCain would qualify as a “natural born citizen” with respect to election to the Presidency, in the absence of a Supreme Court decision on the matter. > [@](#): > > By the way, you do know the man was never naturalized and yet he became a commissioned officer in the United States Navy. Care to guess what the citizenship requirement to be a commissioned officer is? > [@Monty](#): > > You can’t be a commissioned officer in the US without being a citizen. The man was not naturalized. He became a commissioned officer. I believe it is incorrect that naturalized citizens can’t become commissioned officers, since [General John Shalikashvili](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Shalikashvili), who served as the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, was born in Poland and didn’t became a naturalized citizen until the age of 22. Can you explain how this occurred if being a natural born citizen is a requirement for being a commissioned officer? > [@](#): > > Well, there’s the whole deal that the laws applying to McCain’s citizenship really aren’t vague. And, yet again, it doesn’t matter when they were passed. What matters is if the law applies to him. They’re not vague with respect to the fact that he is a citizen. However, they say nothing as to whether he should retroactively be considered a citizen at the time of his birth, and thus a “natural born citizen.” > [@](#): > > Non-naturalized US citizen = natural born citizen. That equation can’t be made in the absence of a Supreme Court decision. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2013, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-somebody-whose-status-as-a-natural-born-citizen-cannot-be-verified-become-us-president/647377/57 "2013-01-18T19:41:08Z")
I never said that naturalized citizens can’t become commissioned officers. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2013, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-somebody-whose-status-as-a-natural-born-citizen-cannot-be-verified-become-us-president/647377/58 "2013-01-18T19:56:54Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > I never said that naturalized citizens can’t become commissioned officers. It wasn’t completely clear what you meant by this: [QUOTE=Monty] You can’t be a commissioned officer in the US without being a citizen. The man was not naturalized. He became a commissioned officer. Non-naturalized US citizen = natural born citizen. [/QUOTE] Non-naturalized citizen may indicate someone who is a citizen by _reasons_ of birth (like McCain, former slaves after the 14th Amendment, or American Indians after 1924); but it doesn’t necessarily indicate someone who was a citizen _at the time of their birth_ (which none of them were). Whether “natural born citizen” means the former or the latter is not definitely determined from a constitutional point of view. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2013, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-somebody-whose-status-as-a-natural-born-citizen-cannot-be-verified-become-us-president/647377/59 "2013-01-18T20:52:07Z")
My post and what I meant were perfectly clear. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2013, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-somebody-whose-status-as-a-natural-born-citizen-cannot-be-verified-become-us-president/647377/60 "2013-01-18T21:14:32Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > My post and what I meant were perfectly clear. The fact that McCain was “not naturalized” was irrelevant to the fact he was a commissioned officer, but you linked those issues. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-somebody-whose-status-as-a-natural-born-citizen-cannot-be-verified-become-us-president/647377.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-somebody-whose-status-as-a-natural-born-citizen-cannot-be-verified-become-us-president/647377.md?page=4)