# Could someone please specify which parts of the original Star Wars are "bad acting"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 23, 2010, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-someone-please-specify-which-parts-of-the-original-star-wars-are-bad-acting/565138 "2010-12-23T00:50:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2010, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-someone-please-specify-which-parts-of-the-original-star-wars-are-bad-acting/565138/61 "2010-12-27T20:49:42Z")
> [@CanvasShoes](#): > > Well, as I said, I’ve only seen it twice, but from what I remember it was an honor thing, not a “we don’t have enough power to get her out of this” thing. She herself agreed to stay because there was an age old agreement of some sort in place that she do so, some debt they were paying. So yeah, the Jedi COULD have gotten her out of it with sheer force but she was the one who made the decision to stay. I’d buy the honor argument, except for the fact that the first thing Qui Gonn does when he meets Watto is try to steal the engine part from him using his psychic mind control powers. And later, he cheats at dice with telekinesis to get Watto to wager Anakin. He’s clearly not above stealing and defrauding Watto when it serves his purposes, so there’s no reason for him not to do the same with Shmi. Except, as you point out in your next paragraph, that it wouldn’t serve the plot: > [@](#): > > Not to mention, him losing his mother (twice, once the first time he leaves, and the second time when the sand people get and eventually kill her) is part and parcel of the beginnings of his journey toward the dark side. And though, as I’ve said, I didn’t agree with the whole “losing Padime in child birth” part of the plot, the early loss of his mom does play into the idea of loss, and in particular loss of important women in his life as being part of the reason for his being so easily swayed to the dark side. Exactly, and its the same problem in both cases: events happen not because they make sense, but because they were necessary for some arbitrary character development note in the main character. > [@](#): > > Yes, I agree wholeheartedly with the first part of your statement there. I’ve seen that in a lot of entertainment. The second part, you know, I have never gotten that sort of sentiment from any of the discussions I’ve read or heard IRL. It’s almost always a matter of compLETELY bashing the every last thing, how horrible the acting is (no different than any other movie of any other genre really), how horrible the plot is. So yeah, there are some things that don’t make sense, or that I wish had been done differently, but again MSTK3 bad, I mean really, has anyone ever seen “Teens from Outer Space” or “The Beast Must Die”? I really think the acting, particularly from Portman and Christensen, was distinctly subpar for a movie this big. It’s not “Ed Wood” bad, but it’s easily “Roger Corman on a good day” bad, and that’s pretty bad. I’d put the acting in the high MSTie range, around _This Island Earth_ or _Marooned_. And the plot is damned near Coleman Francis bad. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_Door](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@Bill\_Door](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_Door)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2010, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-someone-please-specify-which-parts-of-the-original-star-wars-are-bad-acting/565138/62 "2010-12-27T23:26:47Z")
> [@CanvasShoes](#): > > (snip)As I’m watching it, I’m realizing that I like Guiness’ acting LESS than the other actors in the movie, something I didn’t realize until this discussion. A lot LESS realistic when it comes down to it. I’m going to both agree and disagree with you here. You’re right, Guiness’s acting may not have been right for that moment, not because it wasn’t real, but because it was too good for the material. Here’s a quote from Roger Ebert about Walter Mattau in a movie called Hanging Up; [QUOTE=Roger Ebert] Matthau is of course an invaluable actor, lined and weathered, a perfect fit, a catcher’s mitt that has seen us through many a good season. Matthau has himself been very ill, and could no doubt have drawn on that experience for enough cries and whispers to furnish a Bergman movie. But he’s read the script and understands it and doesn’t embarrass himself by providing more authenticity than the material can carry. [/QUOTE] You can be too good for the material. Guiness pulls the focus in that scene. We’re not supposed to be looking at him act. ---
**Author:** ![Stan\_Shmenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/94ad74/32.png) [@Stan\_Shmenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stan_Shmenge)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-someone-please-specify-which-parts-of-the-original-star-wars-are-bad-acting/565138/63 "2010-12-28T10:31:14Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > so there’s no reason for him not to do the same with Shmi. It has been a while since I saw the movie as well, but wasn’t there also some business about the slaves carrying explosive implants? “The BLOW YOU UP!” Anakin won his freedom, so Watto had to deactivate his implant, but mommy was still under Watto’s control. For me, the biggest problem with the prequels was the distinct lack of FUN. The attempt to inject humor, Jar Jar, fell flat and it left the whole thing rather cold and heartless. ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-someone-please-specify-which-parts-of-the-original-star-wars-are-bad-acting/565138/64 "2010-12-28T10:50:26Z")
I was an apologist for a lot of the bad things in the Prequels, expecting that everything people had problems with would be seen to be relevant and necessary once the entire trilogy had been released. But my faith was not rewarded. Something I have been meaning to do for a long time is write out a new draft of the entire Prequel trilogy (in treatment form) using the same themes and story points we now know Lucas was going for, and make them into better movies. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2010, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-someone-please-specify-which-parts-of-the-original-star-wars-are-bad-acting/565138/65 "2010-12-28T18:46:14Z")
> [@GuanoLad](#): > > …Something I have been meaning to do for a long time is write out a new draft of the entire Prequel trilogy (in treatment form) using the same themes and story points we now know Lucas was going for, and make them into better movies. Treatment form? Hell, no – we’ll help you kidnap the Beanie Baby JarJar that Lucas sleeps with and make him reshoot to your script. ~ ~ ~ btw, the differences in Guiness and the NotAsGood actors never bothered me. Even in the That’s No Moon scene, I just saw it as “old, reserved (and for some reason British) monk type” vs “cocky bad boy” and “whiny\* kid”. And I’m hypercritical of that usually. Just realized the same dynamic would apply to Book and Mal in Firefly, too. _I often answer my kids’ ple_eeee\*eading with “_I wanted to go to Toshi Staaaaaation…_” ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-someone-please-specify-which-parts-of-the-original-star-wars-are-bad-acting/565138/66 "2010-12-29T03:13:10Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I’d buy the honor argument, except for the fact that the first thing Qui Gonn does when he meets Watto is try to steal the engine part from him using his psychic mind control powers. And later, he cheats at dice with telekinesis to get Watto to wager Anakin. He’s clearly not above stealing and defrauding Watto when it serves his purposes, so there’s no reason for him not to do the same with Shmi. Except, as you point out in your next paragraph, that it wouldn’t serve the plot: No, no it was Shmi and Anakin, (mostly Shmi) that are trying to honor the old agreement, not the Jedis. I may be remembering it wrong, but there was a spot where they do try to get her to go, and she says she can’t. And again, forgive my memory, but it seems that she was also reluctant to leave because it was all she’d known, but I could be wrong on that as well. > [@](#): > > Exactly, and its the same problem in both cases: events happen not because they make sense, but because they were necessary for some arbitrary character development note in the main character. I suppose so, but I don’t see that as a problem, that’s a very common ploy in a LOT of popular movies. I suppose they could have worked it out by having her kidnapped later on or had her killed as they were escaping or something, but having to lose her that young just has more of an effect on a kid. And if she’d died just then, they couldn’t have then come back later and had him lose her yet again. > [@](#): > > I really think the acting, particularly from Portman and Christensen, was distinctly subpar for a movie this big. It’s not “Ed Wood” bad, but it’s easily “Roger Corman on a good day” bad, and that’s pretty bad. I’d put the acting in the high MSTie range, around _This Island Earth_ or _Marooned_. > > And the plot is damned near Coleman Francis bad. See, now I LIKE Natalie Portman, I don’t find her wooden at all, I find her reserved and ladylike even while fighting space aliens :). I have a couple of favorite chick flicks she’s in, and like I said upthread, I find her reserved in the RIGHT way, not stoned/depressed looking reserved like Gweneth Paltrow. And again, I’m not saying this movie was perfection personified, my whole point has always been it’s not as bad as the SW’s snobs make it out to be. Ive not seen the two movies you mention above, nor am I familiar with the producer you mention, but I’ve seen plenty of bad Sci-Fi, even modern stuff (Ice Quakes the Christmas movie for instance…good GRIEF, almost too horrible to have fun making fun of it) and I still disagree that the last 3 SWs movies were THAT bad, and I definitely disagree that the originals were bad at all. ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-someone-please-specify-which-parts-of-the-original-star-wars-are-bad-acting/565138/67 "2010-12-29T03:23:14Z")
> [@Bill\_Door](#): > > I’m going to both agree and disagree with you here. You’re right, Guiness’s acting may not have been right for that moment, not because it wasn’t real, but because it was too good for the material. Here’s a quote from Roger Ebert about Walter Mattau in a movie called Hanging Up; > > You can be too good for the material. Guiness pulls the focus in that scene. We’re not supposed to be looking at him act. No, it’s not that, at least not for me. Unless you’re talking he should be in something extremely formal and stuffy, like opera. He’s just too acting-y (sorry, I can’t think of a better word :D). He’s ACTING. He’s super articulate and has the most perfect lines, and does everything perfectly. I wouldn’t like him as well in a different role either, I don’t believe. Harrison Ford was sloppy and smartassed and flawed, he WAS Han Solo, a selfish human being, someone who screwed up and made mistakes. Mark Hamill WAS a whiny, impatient boy becoming a man. And I’m a girl, so there’s NO way you’re going to crush my Harrison Ford crush back when I was 18. There wasn’t a girl in my generation who didn’t fall in love INSTANTLY with that rabble rouser grin. 😃 Oh yeah, and you can all quit dissing Billy Dee too! Yeah, there were times they made mistakes, but hell they’re both green in this movie, Alec Guinness was a professional with a background of decades of work behind him. Of course he was perfect, and that’s part of the problem. Sorry, I am not explaining what I mean very well. I guess I just don’t care for “perfect acting” very much. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-someone-please-specify-which-parts-of-the-original-star-wars-are-bad-acting/565138/68 "2010-12-29T03:29:15Z")
> [@CanvasShoes](#): > > No, no it was Shmi and Anakin, (mostly Shmi) that are trying to honor the old agreement, not the Jedis. I may be remembering it wrong, but there was a spot where they do try to get her to go, and she says she can’t. And again, forgive my memory, but it seems that she was also reluctant to leave because it was all she’d known, but I could be wrong on that as well. Well, possibly. I don’t recall an excuse being given, but it’s been years since I’ve seen the movie myself, so I might have left something out. > [@](#): > > I suppose so, but I don’t see that as a problem, that’s a very common ploy in a LOT of popular movies. I suppose they could have worked it out by having her kidnapped later on or had her killed as they were escaping or something, but having to lose her that young just has more of an effect on a kid. And if she’d died just then, they couldn’t have then come back later and had him lose her yet again. Sure, there’s nothing wrong with “young boy loses parent(s)” as a plot device. But if it’s not set up in a believable fashion, then it loses any sense of dramatic tension. If young Billy has to lose his mom because there’s nothing anyone can do about it, that’s a tragedy. If young Billy has to lose his mom because everyone around him is an idiot who can’t figure out how to save her, that’s a farce. The problem with the prequels is that, Lucas appeared to be trying to write a tragedy, and not a farce. > [@](#): > > See, now I LIKE Natalie Portman, I don’t find her wooden at all, I find her reserved and ladylike even while fighting space aliens :). I have a couple of favorite chick flicks she’s in, and like I said upthread, I find her reserved in the RIGHT way, not stoned/depressed looking reserved like Gweneth Paltrow. And again, I’m not saying this movie was perfection personified, my whole point has always been it’s not as bad as the SW’s snobs make it out to be. I like her, too. She’s a much, much better actress than is apparent from the prequel movies - so is Hayden Christensen, from what I’ve heard. But they were both absolutely awful in this movie. Neither of them brings anything to the role that could not have been supplied by a cardboard cut-out of themselves. > [@](#): > > Ive not seen the two movies you mention above, nor am I familiar with the producer you mention, but I’ve seen plenty of bad Sci-Fi, even modern stuff (Ice Quakes the Christmas movie for instance…good GRIEF, almost too horrible to have fun making fun of it) and I still disagree that the last 3 SWs movies were THAT bad, and I definitely disagree that the originals were bad at all. _Marooned_ was an Oscar-winning drama starring Gene Hackman about astronauts trapped in a malfunctioning rocket - basically _Apollo 13_, but entirely fictionalized. It got MSTied in the fourth season of the show. _This Island Earth_ was the movie they tackled in _Mystery Science Theater 3000: The Movie_. Coleman Francis was responsible for such MST gems as _The Beast of Yucca Flats_, _The Skydivers_, and _Red Zone Cuba_. I mention this mostly to establish my cred as a long time MST3K fan, and as support for when I state that _The Phantom Menace_ and, especially, _Attack of the Clones_, are (budget aside) easily in the mid-range of quality for MST3K films. In my opinion, naturally. ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-someone-please-specify-which-parts-of-the-original-star-wars-are-bad-acting/565138/69 "2010-12-29T04:06:18Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Well, possibly. I don’t recall an excuse being given, but it’s been years since I’ve seen the movie myself, so I might have left something out. Ya know…for all we know, SWs the prequels could be EXCELLENT movies, we just don’t remember. 😃 > [@](#): > > Sure, there’s nothing wrong with “young boy loses parent(s)” as a plot device. But if it’s not set up in a believable fashion, then it loses any sense of dramatic tension. If young Billy has to lose his mom because there’s nothing anyone can do about it, that’s a tragedy. If young Billy has to lose his mom because everyone around him is an idiot who can’t figure out how to save her, that’s a farce. The problem with the prequels is that, Lucas appeared to be trying to write a tragedy, and not a farce. Ah, I see what you mean, but I bought it. I didn’t LIKE it, I wanted Anakin’s mom to go with them, but I believed it. I mean, in real life, there are things that are hard and don’t make sense too, but they happen, and more often than we’d like. I guess that’s why I was willing to buy it. > [@](#): > > I like her, too. She’s a much, much better actress than is apparent from the prequel movies - so is Hayden Christensen, from what I’ve heard. But they were both absolutely awful in this movie. Neither of them brings anything to the role that could not have been supplied by a cardboard cut-out of themselves. I can’t remember the name of the movie… “The Hitman” maybe? (well, it was about a hitman anyway, she was 10 or 12 in it), was the first place I saw her. That was years before SW and I noticed then that she kind of had a very understated way about her. I really just saw that same reserved understated demeanor. The scene where Anakin is trying to explain to her why he’s going to the dark side and why he wants her to be with him and she’s telling him he’s breaking her heart. She really reminded me of someone who was doing her best to not break down completely and was really struggling to remain calm and not cry, frankly she reminded me of how I felt (going through a break up myself at the time! :D). I’ve always been one of those girls that refuses to cry in front of a guy. Anyway, as you said, it’s a matter of what a person likes I guess. > [@](#): > > _Marooned_ was an Oscar-winning drama starring Gene Hackman about astronauts trapped in a malfunctioning rocket - basically _Apollo 13_, but entirely fictionalized. It got MSTied in the fourth season of the show. _This Island Earth_ was the movie they tackled in _Mystery Science Theater 3000: The Movie_. Coleman Francis was responsible for such MST gems as _The Beast of Yucca Flats_, _The Skydivers_, and _Red Zone Cuba_. I mention this mostly to establish my cred as a long time MST3K fan, and as support for when I state that _The Phantom Menace_ and, especially, _Attack of the Clones_, are (budget aside) easily in the mid-range of quality for MST3K films. > > In my opinion, naturally. Ah, yeah I am not an MSTK3 expert by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, I never watch it alone, but only at MSTK3 parties after imbibing a small margarita or two. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-someone-please-specify-which-parts-of-the-original-star-wars-are-bad-acting/565138/70 "2010-12-29T04:51:35Z")
> [@CanvasShoes](#): > > I can’t remember the name of the movie… “The Hitman” maybe? (well, it was about a hitman anyway, she was 10 or 12 in it), was the first place I saw her. _The Professional_, with Jean Reno. _Amazing_ movie, and Portman was superb in it. I remember reading about the casting before seeing _Phantom Menace_, and thinking it was going to be incredible: Ewan MacGregor, who was still pretty much unknown, but I’d loved him in _Shallow Grave_ and _Trainspotting_, Liam Neeson, Natalie Portman. It was an amazing cast. MacGregor and Neeson both did great jobs with the material they were given, but Portman just didn’t deliver. She was regularly upstaged by her own outfits. It’s not entirely her fault: she’s shown that with good material and/or strong material, she can really shine. In these movies, she was given neither, and she ends up floundering. Neeson, of course, is an old hand at c-grade scifi, and knows how to sell that stuff. And MacGregor, of course, had Alec Guinness’s performance to pull from. He spends most of the trilogy doing a pretty passable Guinness impersonation, and it works well for him. BTW, there is also a movie called _Hitman_. It’s based off a video game. 'nuff said, I think. > [@](#): > > Ah, yeah I am not an MSTK3 expert by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, I never watch it alone, but only at MSTK3 parties after imbibing a small margarita or two. Yeah, and I bet they always pull out the real stinkers at those parties, too. But MST3K bad covers a bit of territory, from the depths of “late night public access” bad to merely “direct-to-DVD sequel” bad. _The Phantom Menace_ is in the upper range of MST3K bad, _AotC_ somewhat lower. It’s the sort of quality you usually get when you see the video box and think, “I didn’t know they made _one_ sequel to that movie, let alone _five_!” ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2010, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-someone-please-specify-which-parts-of-the-original-star-wars-are-bad-acting/565138/71 "2010-12-29T15:33:46Z")
I just re-watched, for the gazillionth time, the Original Trilogy on Xmas Day. I love these movies, even much of _The Return of the Jedi_ (mostly the parts without Teddy Ruxpin). The acting isn’t the reason why. Mark Hammill, decades later, has become a successful voice actor, but at the time of the original filming he was trying too hard and many of his lines, along with Fisher’s, seemed forced. When the two of them are together, such as the ‘sister’ scene in ROTJ, it’s just painful. Harrison Ford wasn’t a “good” actor, but he had presence and charisma and pulled it off. That is not meant as a knock on his ability. Personally, I think that his career is almost nothing but presence and charisma, and he has been fantastic at it. By the third film, I felt he was tired with the insipid material. Perhaps it was on purpose as to not outshine Luke’s story, but his performance wasn’t as strong as it was in the first two. Using the serials as your inspiration and paying homage to them does not mean you have to copy their weaknesses. Lucas’ fault is that he paid too much attention to the spectacle (especially in the prequels) and not enough in the bridges between the spectacles. All that said, Hammill’s best in the OT was in ROTJ leading up to the epic saber duel with Vader. Fisher’s best was sitting at Jabba’s side in the bikini, saying nothing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-someone-please-specify-which-parts-of-the-original-star-wars-are-bad-acting/565138.md?page=3)