# Could Texas secede any time they want **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 16, 2009, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-texas-secede-any-time-they-want/493281 "2009-04-16T12:55:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ronald\_C.Semone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/cc9497/32.png) [@Ronald\_C.Semone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ronald_C.Semone)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-texas-secede-any-time-they-want/493281/21 "2009-04-16T15:03:30Z")
> [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](#): > > Very much an urban myth. The myth about splitting into five states is a consequence of the [enabling act](http://www.tsl.state.tx.us/ref/abouttx/annexation/march1845.html) for the admission of Texas:Of course any other state can split with the consent of its legislature and Congress as well, so this is nothing special–it’s just a statement of legislative intent not binding on a future Congress. > > There is no foundation whatsoever for any special privileges in regard to secession. > > In practical terms, the idea of secession from a modern welfare state is a joke. The movement will run out of steam the minute people start wondering, “Will my Social Security checks still come on time?” I think the enabling act is ambiguous. It could mean that Congress can initiate the division of Texas into upto five states and if Texas gives its consent they can be admitted to the Union. But it could also be read to mean that it is up to Texas to initiate the division and once Texas gives its consent the normal admission process takes place. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-texas-secede-any-time-they-want/493281/22 "2009-04-16T15:18:00Z")
> [@guizot](#): > > I don’t know about Texas, but California pays more to the feds than it receives in federal support. California has much more reason to secede than Texas. It would be the sixth or seventh economy in the world. It also has the second largest Mexican population (Los Angeles) after Mexico City. > > And Texas didn’t secede from the U.S. It seceded from Mexico. First they seceded from Mexico, then they joined the United States, then they seceded from the United States, then they joined the Confederacy, then they rejoined the United States. So that’s two secessions and three unions. If they keep it up they’ll be in Elizabeth Taylor territory. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-texas-secede-any-time-they-want/493281/23 "2009-04-16T15:18:45Z")
> [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](#): > > Very much an urban myth. The myth about splitting into five states is a consequence of the [enabling act](http://www.tsl.state.tx.us/ref/abouttx/annexation/march1845.html) for the admission of Texas:Of course any other state can split with the consent of its legislature and Congress as well, so this is nothing special–it’s just a statement of legislative intent not binding on a future Congress. > > There is no foundation whatsoever for any special privileges in regard to secession. > > In practical terms, the idea of secession from a modern welfare state is a joke. The movement will run out of steam the minute people start wondering, “Will my Social Security checks still come on time?” It is arguable that the Enabling Act constitutes Congress’s consent, making it true that Texas could, by act of its own legislature, divide into two to five states, under the Constitutional provisions (New states are admitted by act of Congress but if comprised of parts of existing states require the consent of the state legislature(s)) – the idea being that Congress already gave their consent in the Enabling Act. Of course, the fact that Texas _de facto_ seceded to join the Confederacy and was readmitted may throw a monkey wrench into that argument. And it’s not one I’d care to spend more than a post or two defending – but it is worth noting. As far as the general principle goes, _Texas v White_ as a matter of law and the Civil War as a matter of practical power politics makes it quite clear that a state may not secede without consent of Congress, no matter what urban legends are extant about Texas’s special status. And Gov. Perry would be well advised to consult the history of the Southern firebrands of 1859-61, and what happened to them thereafter. Probably many of those statutes are still on the books. (It would be funny, though, to see the Republic of Texas attempting to pay for every Federal bit of construction in the state – built with the taxes of U.S. citizens, and by no means the property of an indemendent Texas until they are paid for. How many miles of interstate highway are there in Texas? How many military bases? What’s been built at Big Bend National Park or Alamo National Monument, and how much did it cost?) ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-texas-secede-any-time-they-want/493281/24 "2009-04-16T15:31:02Z")
> [@Ronald\_C.Semone](#): > > I think the enabling act is ambiguous. It could mean that Congress can initiate the division of Texas into upto five states and if Texas gives its consent they can be admitted to the Union. But it could also be read to mean that it is up to Texas to initiate the division and once Texas gives its consent the normal admission process takes place. If you take look at the map of Texas at the time of annexation, parts of it became parts of Oklahoma, New Mexico, Nebraska, Colorado and Wyoming. So Texas has already been divided into new states. Plus there’s the dang ol’ Constitution: New States may be admitted by the Congress into this Union; but no new State shall be formed or erected within the Jurisdiction of any other State; nor any State be formed by the Junction of two or more States, or Parts of States, without the Consent of the Legislatures of the States concerned as well as of the Congress. ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-texas-secede-any-time-they-want/493281/25 "2009-04-16T15:36:21Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > There’s a very credible secessionist movement much closer to Texas than that, right on the northern border of the US – the Parti Québécois advocates secession from Canada, and has 40% of the seats in the Assemblée nationale du Québec. And after 30 years, they still haven’t seceded–nor even begun the “negotiations” on “sovereignty-association” during which the horrible problems of disentangling from a modern welfare state would rear themselves. ---
**Author:** ![WeSt\_TX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/91b2a8/32.png) [@WeSt\_TX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WeSt_TX)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-texas-secede-any-time-they-want/493281/26 "2009-04-16T15:50:25Z")
I have read that there were TWO seperate votes in Texas on wether or not to join the Union. One in 1845 or so and one in the early 1900’s. Both times joing the Union was defeated by the people of THE REPUBLIC OF TEXAS. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-texas-secede-any-time-they-want/493281/27 "2009-04-16T15:59:48Z")
> [@WeSt\_TX](#): > > I have read that there were TWO seperate votes in Texas on wether or not to join the Union. One in 1845 or so and one in the early 1900’s. Both times joing the Union was defeated by the people of THE REPUBLIC OF TEXAS. This is incorrect, and if it were true, how did Texas end up in the U.S.? Texans approved annexation by a vote in 1845. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-texas-secede-any-time-they-want/493281/28 "2009-04-16T16:09:57Z")
> [@ShibbOleth](#): > > Is Texas a net payer or receiver of taxes? According to [this](http://www.taxfoundation.org/research/topic/60.html) > [@](#): > > Texas taxpayers receive less federal funding per dollar of federal taxes paid compared to the average state. Per dollar of Federal tax collected in 2005, Texas citizens received approximately $0.94 in the way of federal spending. This ranks the state 35th nationally Nowhere near as much as Calfornia (only $0.78 back same year.) And times have changed since 2005. Most [recently](https://fmx.cpa.state.tx.us/fm/pubs/cashrpt/08/html/condition.php) > [@](#): > > Texas received $26.2 billion in federal funds during fiscal 2008, an increase of 7.6 percent from fiscal 2007. Federal funds are second only to tax collections as a source of revenue for the state accounting for 30.2 percent of total net revenue. I cannot find figures showing what has happened to the amount of Federal taxes paid by Texans over that time however. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-texas-secede-any-time-they-want/493281/29 "2009-04-16T16:10:30Z")
> [@WeSt\_TX](#): > > I have read that there were TWO seperate votes in Texas on wether or not to join the Union. One in 1845 or so and one in the early 1900’s. Both times joing the Union was defeated by the people of THE REPUBLIC OF TEXAS. Even if the first part were true, this sort of vote would be in the legislature, not a referendum or some such thing. In any case, nothing you’ve said is true. Texas was not the guilty party in the initial problems with its admission into the United States. ---
**Author:** ![Sandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/22d042/32.png) [@Sandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sandwich)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-texas-secede-any-time-they-want/493281/30 "2009-04-16T16:25:43Z")
> [@Sandwich](#): > > I think it is generally accepted under international law that people have the right to self-determination. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > No, it isn’t. I think it is a bit more nuanced that BrainGlutton asserts. For instance, the UN charter mentions it in chapter 1 part 1 paragraph 2:[http://www.un.org/aboutun/charter/chapter1.shtml](http://www.un.org/aboutun/charter/chapter1.shtml). Okay, they just call it a “principle”, but as I said in my first post, international law is a lot less tangible than national law. ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-texas-secede-any-time-they-want/493281/31 "2009-04-16T16:29:13Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > If you take look at the map of Texas at the time of annexation, parts of it became parts of Oklahoma, New Mexico, Nebraska, Colorado and Wyoming. So Texas has already been divided into new states. Although the [Boundary Act of 1850](http://link.tsl.state.tx.us/treasures/earlystate/boundary-07.html), which stripped Texas down to its current size, reiterated that: > [@](#): > > Provided, That nothing herein contained shall be construed to impair or qualify anything contained in the 3rd article of the 2nd section of the “Joint Resolution for annexing Texas to the United States,” approved March 1, 1845, either as regards the number of States that may hereafter be formed out of the State of Texas, or otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Sandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/22d042/32.png) [@Sandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sandwich)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-texas-secede-any-time-they-want/493281/32 "2009-04-16T16:32:09Z")
[quote=“yojimbo, post:16, topic:493281”] The Rep. of Ireland did not just claim this right of self determination that you talk about. They fought a War of Independence for it exactly like the US did. QUOTE] Well they fought a war, though whether they needed to is harder to judge. Are we concluding that the United States is right to act in Texas like the British Empire in Ireland? ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-texas-secede-any-time-they-want/493281/33 "2009-04-16T16:40:00Z")
There is absolutely NOTHING worth calling a legitimate secessionist movement in Texas. Rock Perry can say whatever silly things he wants, but Texas isn’t going anywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-texas-secede-any-time-they-want/493281/34 "2009-04-16T16:47:06Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > There is absolutely NOTHING worth calling a legitimate secessionist movement in Texas. > > Rock Perry can say whatever silly things he wants, but Texas isn’t going anywhere. Yeah, but you’re from Austin, which isn’t really Texas, according to the two folks who told me all about the Texas secessionist movement in my link in post #2 above! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Cliffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cliffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cliffy)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-texas-secede-any-time-they-want/493281/35 "2009-04-16T16:55:20Z")
I hear this shit from Texans so often, it must be taught in their public schools. Well, public schools generally are very poor at teaching about the federal/state ralationship, but this is a particular bugbear that’s so often debunked, you think someone would tell the fucking governor of the state. No such luck. –Cliffy ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-texas-secede-any-time-they-want/493281/36 "2009-04-16T16:56:04Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > Yeah, but you’re from Austin, which isn’t really Texas, according to the two folks who told me all about the Texas secessionist movement in my link in post #2 above! > > 😉 Fair joke, but the thing is, Texas in GENERAL isn’t “really Texas” any more! Even conservative, religious, middle-class white folks living in Plano, Irving, Arlington, Katy and Pasadena have no time or patience with nonsense liek secession. Rural rednecks may think of themselves as the only “real” Texans, but demographics say otherwise. MOST of the Texas population is located in or around a few large cities. This population IS certainly more conservative than Blue Staters would like, and they prefer lower taxes. But they’re NOT interested in secession. Neither are their elderly retired in-laws down in Brownsville, who will fight tooth and nail to keep their Social Security checks coming. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-texas-secede-any-time-they-want/493281/37 "2009-04-16T17:06:17Z")
> [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](#): > > The movement will run out of steam the minute people start wondering, “Will my Social Security checks still come on time?” > [@astorian](#): > > Neither are their elderly retired in-laws down in Brownsville, who will fight tooth and nail to keep their Social Security checks coming. If they believe this, they are wrong. You can move to almost anywhere (Cuba, Iran and North Korea might be exceptions) and still get your US Social Security – partly because you’ve already paid for it through your social security tax. If they moved to Mexico or Canada, they’d still get Social Security, so the same would happen in an independent Texas. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-texas-secede-any-time-they-want/493281/38 "2009-04-16T17:16:55Z")
Even if you renounce your American citizenship? So Texians imagine their retirees are going to keep getting Social Security checks from Uncle Sugar, but they aren’t going to have to keep paying into Social Security? Social Security is “pay as you go”. Yes, people have been fed the line that they’re getting back what they paid in, but that is completely false. Current retirees get paid from funds that come from current workers. If Texians don’t pay in to Social Security, they don’t get anything out of Social Security. American citizens who happen to live in Texas can still get Social Security, but they will still have to pay in. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-texas-secede-any-time-they-want/493281/39 "2009-04-16T17:25:20Z")
You don’t get Social Security because of your citizenship: you get it because you have worked in the US and paid into Social Security while doing so. (I am not a US citizen, and I will be getting a Social Security cheque when I go back to Australia after retirement). What might happen, in the very unlikely event of Texan independence, is that the new Republic of Texas would take over the Social Security obligation for people living in Texas, in exchange for other concessions from the US government, such as Texas getting ownership of all the federal buildings and lands in Texas. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2009, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-texas-secede-any-time-they-want/493281/40 "2009-04-16T17:26:46Z")
> [@Sandwich](#): > > Well they fought a war, though whether they needed to is harder to judge. It’s not hard to judge at all. There was a huge majority vote in 1918 for Sinn Féin and they stood on a platform of Indepence. In 1919 they formed the first Dáil(Parliament) which was declared illegal by the British > [@](#): > > **from the Declaration that day** > > we, the elected Representatives of the ancient Irish people in National Parliament assembled, do, in the name of the Irish nation, ratify the establishment of the Irish Republic and pledge ourselves and our people to make this declaration effective by every means at our command > > … > > We solemnly declare foreign government in Ireland to be an invasion of our national right which we will never tolerate, and we demand the evacuation of our country by the English Garrison. It was also on that day that the War of Independence started. > [@](#): > > Are we concluding that the United States is right to act in Texas like the British Empire in Ireland? No “we’re” not concluding anything. If you think the US in acting in Texas like the British did in Ireland then I respectfully say to you that you have no clue about either what happen in Ireland in that time or what is happening in Texas at the moment. Perhaps you could enlighten us with some examples of the similarities between the situations? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-texas-secede-any-time-they-want/493281.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-texas-secede-any-time-they-want/493281.md?page=3)