# Could Texas secede any time they want **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 16, 2009, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-texas-secede-any-time-they-want/493281 "2009-04-16T12:55:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-texas-secede-any-time-they-want/493281/121 "2009-04-24T02:09:40Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > I repeat, there’s no secessionist movement in Texas. The [Daily Kos](http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/4/23/723608/-Lots-of-unpatriotic-Texans-want-out-of-the-union) had a survey done by something called Research 2000 that’s getting mentioned quite a few places ( how I heard of it ) : > [@](#): > > Research 2000 for Daily Kos. 4/20-22. Likely voters. MoE 4% (No trend lines) > > Do you think Texas would be better off as an independent nation or as part of the United States of America? > > US: 61 > Independent nation: 35 > > Democrats: US 82, Ind 15 > Republicans: US 48, Ind 48 > Independents: US 55, Ind 40 > > Do you approve or disapprove of Governor Rick Perry’s suggestion that Texas may need to leave the United States? > > Approve: 37 > Disapprove: 58 > > Democrats: Approve 16, Disapprove 80 > Republicans: Approve 51, Disapprove 44 > Independents: Approve 43, Disapprove 50 That sure looks like a movement to me, assuming the numbers are true. EDIT : I see \*\*Captain Carrot \*\*beat me to it. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-texas-secede-any-time-they-want/493281/122 "2009-04-24T02:45:39Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > That sure looks like a movement to me, assuming the numbers are true. A movement is a group of people actively promoting something. So no, it’s not a movement. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-texas-secede-any-time-they-want/493281/123 "2009-04-24T03:10:22Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > There have been many comments in this thread about the original treaty that allowed Texas to join the U.S. back in 1845. Did readmission to the U.S. following the Civil War continue the treaty or nullify it? The state of Texas was never OUT of the Union. They were temporarily prevented from exercising their otherwise constitutional participation in our federal scheme of government. The return of those rights to them did not invalidate their original admission. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-texas-secede-any-time-they-want/493281/124 "2009-04-24T03:31:55Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > A movement is a group of people actively promoting something. So no, it’s not a movement. No, that just means that it’s just getting started. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-texas-secede-any-time-they-want/493281/125 "2009-04-24T03:42:54Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > The state of Texas was never OUT of the Union. They were temporarily prevented from exercising their otherwise constitutional participation in our federal scheme of government. That’s a, shall we say, _interesting_ way of phrasing what could otherwise be covered by the single word “seceded”. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-texas-secede-any-time-they-want/493281/126 "2009-04-24T03:50:00Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > That’s a, shall we say, _interesting_ way of phrasing what could otherwise be covered by the single word “seceded”. DSY is a lawyer – **of course** he’s going to fancy it up! 😛 But he does have a point – whatever was the _apparent_ state of affairs, what with Texas joining the CSA and all, the **legal** position is that the state legislature unconstitutionally deprived its citizens of participation on the Union government, which they were unable to detach the state from _de jure_, and Reconstruction served to put the state back where it belonged and legally always had been. Kind of like how the Catholics feel about divorce… the courts may have legally dissolved the marriage, the couple think they’re divorced, but the Church knows they can’t _“really”_ undo a valid marriage. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-texas-secede-any-time-they-want/493281/127 "2009-04-24T04:41:36Z")
> [@Troy\_McClure\_SF](#): > > Are we allowed to make fun of that? Please do, pretty please. I do it as often as I can. I just wish some folks would do it in the Governor’s presence a little more often. Then maybe ours wouldn’t be such loud jerks. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-texas-secede-any-time-they-want/493281/128 "2009-04-24T05:15:39Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > They already have an army, the [Texas State Guard](http://www.txsg.state.tx.us/), on of the three branches of the [Texas Military Forces](http://www.agd.state.tx.us/). As I recall from school, retaining it’s own military was part of the statehood deal back in 1845. I believe it supplements the National Guard. [State Defense Forces](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_guard) (separate from the National Guard) are not unique to Texas. Texas is a state of the Union. It has no special status in this regard. That it was an independent republic, recognized as such by the U.S. before joining the Union, now means absolutely nothing in terms of the U.S. Constitution or federal law. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-texas-secede-any-time-they-want/493281/129 "2009-04-24T05:38:36Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No, that just means that it’s just getting started. How so? ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-texas-secede-any-time-they-want/493281/130 "2009-04-24T15:03:52Z")
> [@tjcoop3](#): > > Of course I got carried away with the idea that someone might stand up to the tyranny of the Federal Govt. sorry Can you give me an example of this tyranny? (Hint: raising taxes is not tyranny, any more than it was tyranny back when Texas “resident” Bush the First did it.) ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2009, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-texas-secede-any-time-they-want/493281/131 "2009-04-24T15:22:16Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > DSY is a lawyer – **of course** he’s going to fancy it up! 😛 > > But he does have a point – whatever was the _apparent_ state of affairs, what with Texas joining the CSA and all, the **legal** position is that the state legislature unconstitutionally deprived its citizens of participation on the Union government, which they were unable to detach the state from _de jure_, and Reconstruction served to put the state back where it belonged and legally always had been. > > Kind of like how the Catholics feel about divorce… the courts may have legally dissolved the marriage, the couple think they’re divorced, but the Church knows they can’t _“really”_ undo a valid marriage. Was this not, in fact, President Lincoln’s opinion on the legal status of the Confederate States? ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2009, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-texas-secede-any-time-they-want/493281/132 "2009-04-27T17:28:31Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Let’s not forget that Perry first became Governor because he was Lt Governor when we got Our First Court-Appointed President… We’ve never had a court-appointed president. Deal with it. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2009, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-texas-secede-any-time-they-want/493281/133 "2009-04-27T21:56:42Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > We’ve never had a court-appointed president. Deal with it. I’m sure Presidents Tilden and Gore will be happy to hear you affirm that. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2009, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-texas-secede-any-time-they-want/493281/134 "2009-04-27T21:57:45Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Was this not, in fact, President Lincoln’s opinion on the legal status of the Confederate States? I think you’re right – any Civil War scholars around who could confirm it? ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-texas-secede-any-time-they-want/493281/135 "2009-04-28T01:18:49Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > That’s a, shall we say, _interesting_ way of phrasing what could otherwise be covered by the single word “seceded”. Uh, no. If the states had actually “seceded,” then they would have had to be readmitted to the union, following the same procedures they had to follow to be admitted in the first place (with the exception of the four states which attempted secession that were original colonies). But, since they never actually seceded, they didn’t need to be re-admitted. Which was VERY important, actually, since if they HAD been considered to have accomplished a valid secession, then the Union could have imposed all SORTS of conditions upon readmittance. In the case of Texas, one can easily imagine that it would have been split up, and pieces of it attached to various of the unadmitted territories, such as taking the panhandle and giving it to what became Colorado. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-texas-secede-any-time-they-want/493281/136 "2009-04-28T01:39:00Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > Uh, no. I didn’t, I suspect, make my point (now known to be a misunderstanding) clear. There were conditions set, there were acts passed by Congress and signed by the President. I did not understand what this was, if not readmission. What I have been (lo, these many years) thinking of as readmission was actually an act of Congress acknowledging that the states had met the conditions set for a restoration of Congressional representation. For instance, in Texas’ case, they had to write a new constitution that allowed for universal male suffrage and ratify the Fourteenth Amendment. Then Congress passed an act that Texas had restored a republican form of government, and their Representatives and Senators could again be seated. At least, that’s my current understanding. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-texas-secede-any-time-they-want/493281/137 "2009-04-28T01:50:39Z")
Right. As I said, they never seceded. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2009, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-texas-secede-any-time-they-want/493281/138 "2009-04-28T04:34:11Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > We’ve never had a court-appointed president. Deal with it. I dealt with your boy for 8 years. So did this country & the world. Thanks a lot! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-texas-secede-any-time-they-want/493281.md?page=6)