# Could the Dems win the white-working-class vote by getting more aggressively progressive? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [April 9, 2014, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-dems-win-the-white-working-class-vote-by-getting-more-aggressively-progressive/685747 "2014-04-09T19:39:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-dems-win-the-white-working-class-vote-by-getting-more-aggressively-progressive/685747/61 "2014-04-14T17:23:02Z")
What was all that about the job-creators having a right to the reward for taking risks? When did that stop including taking responsibility for losses, too? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-dems-win-the-white-working-class-vote-by-getting-more-aggressively-progressive/685747/62 "2014-04-14T17:45:04Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Here’s the problem with taxing capital gains as regular income: Who the fuck cares? Look, the point wasn’t whether the things I mentioned were good or bad; the point was whether the economic interests of a household making $200K a year aligned with those of people like the Kochs. The answer is NO. That’s the sum total of the relevance of cap gains taxation to this thread. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-dems-win-the-white-working-class-vote-by-getting-more-aggressively-progressive/685747/63 "2014-04-14T17:49:55Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > My capital gains and dividend rate are 0%. So yes, my interest is in keeping investment taxes low or non-existent Well, that kinda goes without saying, doesn’t it? Must be nice to be the guy whose income is subsidized by the people who work every day and whose paychecks are taxed as regular income. I guess the rest of us are just suckers. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-dems-win-the-white-working-class-vote-by-getting-more-aggressively-progressive/685747/64 "2014-04-14T18:09:39Z")
Anyway, back to the topic, my simplified take is this: 1. The Dems do just fine in Presidential election years. 2. Their problem is in midterms and other off-year elections. 3. Winning the elections in (2) is a matter of getting your base to turn out. 4. You do that by (a) firing up the base and giving them a reason to vote, volunteer, and contribute money, and (b) GOTV. A stronger progressive platform could certainly help with 4a. I think it’s a real problem when voters aren’t sure that the Dems are on their side, even if they believe the GOP is clearly not. It doesn’t have to be anything particularly radical (“_more, better-paying jobs_” has a nice ring to it, IMHO) but it’s got to address the issues that people are dealing with. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-dems-win-the-white-working-class-vote-by-getting-more-aggressively-progressive/685747/65 "2014-04-14T19:02:49Z")
I mostly agree with what you said, but the problem is that the motivating issues in blue states are different than the motivating issues in purple states. On no issue is this more clear than Obamacare: a good number of moderates are unhappy about the law, and are willing to entertain repealing it. There’s also liberals who are unhappy that it doesn’t go far enough. The problem is that good Democratic candidates running in more blue areas might talk about further expansion of Obamacare, which would be great in those areas. The problem is that message bleeds over to purple states, where that’s just not a good message at all. And let’s also keep in mind that the Democratic candidates that do, and have done, quite well with the type of voter we’re talking about here are typically in the Bill Clinton triangulation mold – most certainly not the Alan Grayson sort of mold. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-dems-win-the-white-working-class-vote-by-getting-more-aggressively-progressive/685747/66 "2014-04-14T20:20:51Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > By the same interests, I mean the same interests in regards to the way the government behaves towards them. Of course they don’t live the same way and there’s a vast difference in wealth between the 1% and the 20%. But whether you make $100,000/yr or $10,000,000/yr you’re primary problem with the government is still going to be your taxes. But in the latter and only in the latter case your primary problem is capital-gains tax and inheritance tax, not income tax – unless you have much bigger problems with the Securities and Exchange Commission. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-dems-win-the-white-working-class-vote-by-getting-more-aggressively-progressive/685747/67 "2014-04-14T20:22:07Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > What was all that about the job-creators having a right to the reward for taking risks? When did that stop including taking responsibility for losses, too? Always. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-dems-win-the-white-working-class-vote-by-getting-more-aggressively-progressive/685747/68 "2014-04-14T20:29:39Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > It doesn’t have to be anything particularly radical (“_more, better-paying jobs_” has a nice ring to it, IMHO) but it’s got to address the issues that people are dealing with. And **emphasize “better-paying” over “more.”** As Robert Reich writes in [_Beyond Outrage:_](http://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Outrage-Expanded-Edition-democracy/dp/0345804376) > [@](#): > > The economy’s success can’t be measured by the unemployment rate, either. As I’ve emphasized, that rate doesn’t take account of declining wages. Nor does it account for all the people who have become too discouraged to work because there are no jobs for them, and all those who are working part-time and want and need full-time jobs, or the growing ranks of contract workers, temporary workers, and others living from paycheck to paycheck with no job security at all. > > Our economy’s success can’t even be measured by whether average incomes are turning upward. An average can disguise what’s happening to the majority because averages are pulled up by the top, and when the top is exceptionally high, the average can be far better than what most people experiences. Shaquille O’Neill and I have an average height of six feet. > > Even if most Americans are able to buy more, our lives won’t improve if our schools, parks, roads, air and water, and other public goods continue to deteriorate. We won’t feel better off if our workplaces are unsafe, if we have no regular access to medical care, or if the cost of a major illness can wipe out our savings. And our lives will not be better if our democracy is dying, replaced by a system mostly responsive to big corporations and wealthy individuals. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-dems-win-the-white-working-class-vote-by-getting-more-aggressively-progressive/685747/69 "2014-04-14T20:38:35Z")
I agree, Democrats need to get very, very interested in raising wages for middle class jobs and creating more of them. But they are not, beyond meaningless lip service. I can’t IMAGINE the middle class voter would object to Democratic elected leaders doing all they can to take positive steps to help the middle class, but all they do is yammer, they don’t even attempt to do anything. I wonder why not? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-dems-win-the-white-working-class-vote-by-getting-more-aggressively-progressive/685747/70 "2014-04-14T21:03:57Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Who the fuck cares? > > Look, the point wasn’t whether the things I mentioned were good or bad; the point was whether the economic interests of a household making $200K a year aligned with those of people like the Kochs. > > The answer is NO. That’s the sum total of the relevance of cap gains taxation to this thread. Actually, I addressed why my interetss align with the Kochs on this issue. Taxing capital gains as regular income would make it a lot harder for me to make money investing. Work income is risk-free. Investing is not. That alone is why investments should be taxed less. The other reason is that poorer people need to save and invest more than richer people. And the tax system should be friendly to saving. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-dems-win-the-white-working-class-vote-by-getting-more-aggressively-progressive/685747/71 "2014-04-14T21:38:54Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > I agree, Democrats need to get very, very interested in raising wages for middle class jobs and creating more of them. But they are not, beyond meaningless lip service. I can’t IMAGINE the middle class voter would object to Democratic elected leaders doing all they can to take positive steps to help the middle class, but all they do is yammer, they don’t even attempt to do anything. > > I wonder why not? You know the answer to that, it’s in the OP: Because they need campaign contributions from deep-pocket donors. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-dems-win-the-white-working-class-vote-by-getting-more-aggressively-progressive/685747/72 "2014-04-14T21:41:24Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Actually, I addressed why my interetss align with the Kochs on this issue. Taxing capital gains as regular income would make it a lot harder for me to make money investing. **Good.** Lack of **investment** is not the problem with the American economy. That’s supply-side thinking, and we’ve had much more than enough of **that!** ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-dems-win-the-white-working-class-vote-by-getting-more-aggressively-progressive/685747/73 "2014-04-15T00:33:18Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Actually, I addressed why my interetss align with the Kochs on this issue. Taxing capital gains as regular income would make it a lot harder for me to make money investing. > > Work income is risk-free. Investing is not. That alone is why investments should be taxed less. The other reason is that poorer people need to save and invest more than richer people. And the tax system should be friendly to saving. I thought about trying to respond, but yanno? The views behind this post are why the Republicans were beaten so comprehensively in 2012 that some of them choose not even to remember it. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-dems-win-the-white-working-class-vote-by-getting-more-aggressively-progressive/685747/74 "2014-04-15T01:15:10Z")
The democrats need to focus their efforts on turning out voters who agree with them, not on converting white conservative voters. You also have to consider that white conservative voters are going to create a big division within the democratic party which tries to be inclusive towards those considered on the fringes of the socioeconomic system. The democratic coalition used to have both minorities and conservative whites, but that coalition broke down in the 60s. Many conservative republicans are strongly attached to the sense of moral superiority they feel over non-whites and the poor. Any coalition that requires those groups to work together will fail eventually. I say we continue letting the GOP implode, driving away all but the base and making the party more and more radical in the process. Unmarried women alone make up about 25-30% of the electorate, they prefer democrats 2-1. Get them to vote instead of trying to convince Jethro to put aside his xenophobia long enough to listen to an economics lecture about the minimum wage. > **[Single Women Are Quickly Becoming the 'Evangelicals' of the Democratic Party](https://jezebel.com/single-women-are-quickly-becoming-the-evangelicals-of-t-5894303)** > > There's a new voting bloc on the rise and, unfortunately for Republicans, it's not the aging, disaffected, white male small business owner who hauled himself up by his bootstraps to teach himself accounting and microeconomics because he'd be damned... > **[Unmarried Women are the Democratic Party’s Christian Evangelicals](https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2007/11/unmarried-women-are-democratic-partys-christian-evangelicals/)** > > There's a new poll out that reveals a key Democratic voting bloc for 2008. According to research done by Greenberg... Getting people to vote requires doing the opposite of what the GOP is doing. Make election day a paid national holiday. Have mandatory voter registration. Offer transportation to/from the polls. Make absentee voting easier. Have more early voting. Also not all whites are the same. The whites in Vermont vote democrat about 2-1. The whites in Mississippi vote republican about 9-1. Also that article implies that if you just explain to voters how democrats have their economic interests at heart they will switch party affiliation is what people like George Lakoff have been trying to get away from. You need a narrative and storyline and like it or not the GOP have an appealing one. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-dems-win-the-white-working-class-vote-by-getting-more-aggressively-progressive/685747/75 "2014-04-15T01:48:07Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > The democrats need to focus their efforts on turning out voters who agree with them, not on converting white conservative voters. The Dems can win white working-class voters without converting them; just offer them everything they want on the **economic** side and downplay the social side – they’re “conservative” on the latter but not the former. > [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Also that article implies that if you just explain to voters how democrats have their economic interests at heart . . . No, the point of the article is that explaining ain’t enough, you actually have to **do** things in their economic interests that Dems have **not** been doing since LBJ. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-dems-win-the-white-working-class-vote-by-getting-more-aggressively-progressive/685747/76 "2014-04-15T14:09:38Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Actually, I addressed why my interetss align with the Kochs on this issue. Taxing capital gains as regular income would make it a lot harder for me to make money investing. 1)\*Awwwwwwwwww. \* 2) You’re not exactly a typical upper middle class person. So if your interests are aligned with the Kochs, that’s nice but meaningless. > [@](#): > > Work income is risk-free. Because nobody ever gets fired or laid off. > [@](#): > > Investing is not. That alone is why investments should be taxed less. Sure, investment has risks. So what? _We don’t need you to invest._ We, from a public policy standpoint, don’t care whether you invest or not, so why should we subsidize it? If you want to take on the risk, good for you. But that’s strictly your business. Poker playing has risks too, but we don’t subsidize that either. > [@](#): > > The other reason is that poorer people need to save and invest more than richer people. And the tax system should be friendly to saving. The tax system can be - and is already - friendly to poorer people by largely exempting them from taxation. Besides, the best way to get poorer people to save? Pay them enough for their labor so they’ve got some money left over that they _can_ save. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-dems-win-the-white-working-class-vote-by-getting-more-aggressively-progressive/685747/77 "2014-04-15T15:08:24Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The Dems can win white working-class voters without converting them; just offer them everything they want on the **economic** side and downplay the social side – they’re “conservative” on the latter but not the former. OK, BrainGlutton, terminology is getting to be a problem here. Why are you saying “white working class voters” when the topic in general has been “white middle class voters”? I think SOME segments of the white middle class can be lured away from the Republican fold by a Democratic Party that actually tries to promote their economic interests, but others, specifically, the lower middle class will be much harder. That’s because when you are just a rung above the homeless, what you have to make yourself feel like a worthwhile person is your morality, your beliefs about what is right and just. And that’s where the Republicans have been fiendishly clever, tying in opposition to gay marriage and abortion rights to middle class morality, with the religious establishment playing right along with them. You are NOT gonna be able to cull these people from the Republican Party by working in their economic interests, because their economic status does not define who they are, to their minds. It’s their morality that defines who they are. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-dems-win-the-white-working-class-vote-by-getting-more-aggressively-progressive/685747/78 "2014-04-15T15:51:59Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > OK, BrainGlutton, terminology is getting to be a problem here. Why are you saying “white working class voters” when the topic in general has been “white middle class voters”? Because white **working** -class voters **are** the topic of this thread, see OP and thread title. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-dems-win-the-white-working-class-vote-by-getting-more-aggressively-progressive/685747/79 "2014-04-16T13:53:26Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > OK, BrainGlutton, terminology is getting to be a problem here. Why are you saying “white working class voters” when the topic in general has been “white middle class voters”? I think SOME segments of the white middle class can be lured away from the Republican fold by a Democratic Party that actually tries to promote their economic interests, but others, specifically, the lower middle class will be much harder. That’s because when you are just a rung above the homeless, what you have to make yourself feel like a worthwhile person is your morality, your beliefs about what is right and just. And that’s where the Republicans have been fiendishly clever, tying in opposition to gay marriage and abortion rights to middle class morality, with the religious establishment playing right along with them. You are NOT gonna be able to cull these people from the Republican Party by working in their economic interests, because their economic status does not define who they are, to their minds. It’s their morality that defines who they are. And again, what is the middle class’s economic interest? Low taxes. Do you think middle class families are actually sitting around the table thinking, “Ya know, if only the government would take more money from us and give it back to us with strings attached.” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-dems-win-the-white-working-class-vote-by-getting-more-aggressively-progressive/685747/80 "2014-04-16T14:09:47Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > And again, what is the middle class’s economic interest? An abundance of high-income jobs. Investment in public infrastructure, material and otherwise, that they use and need. Survival as a class and an end to conditions that threaten that survival, for which taxes are **not** to blame. And the economic interest of the working class is very similar. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-dems-win-the-white-working-class-vote-by-getting-more-aggressively-progressive/685747.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-dems-win-the-white-working-class-vote-by-getting-more-aggressively-progressive/685747.md?page=5)