# Could the Germans' lane discipline significantly reduce congestion in the USA? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 1, 2013, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-germans-lane-discipline-significantly-reduce-congestion-in-the-usa/670139 "2013-10-01T21:39:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2013, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-germans-lane-discipline-significantly-reduce-congestion-in-the-usa/670139/21 "2013-10-02T10:00:07Z")
> [@Moe](#): > > I don’t think that’s strictly true from my experience. I don’t drive often but when I have driven on a 3-lane autobahn typically the center lane is the cruising lane, same as the US. I think they are perhaps a bit stricter than in the US about using the left lane only for passing. Incidentally I’m talking about the autobahn that serves Berlin. Once you get outside the city and are on the no-speed-limit sections of the autobahn you best be staying out of the left lane unless you’re going damn fast. No shit - I rented a Kuga 3 years ago and was having a blast on the autobahns. I swear sometimes it looked like the people in the right lane were parked. I just wish I had a dash cam. But I think the 3 lane [passing, travel, entry/exit] lane system if the damned Americans would actually follow the rules would be marvelous. I think the enforcement of the laws would have to be seriously draconian for the first couple years [or until the old fogeys died off and the young generation who grew up with the rules dominated] to get it functional. But then again, in Germany they are draconian when enforcing driving laws, there are even laws against making rude or obscene gestures at other drivers, the driver eating or using a cell phone in cars and the like. And the process for getting licensed in the first place is pretty draconian compared to the US [back in the 1970s I got a learners permit, then 6 months of ‘practice’ then I took the 3 hour class of watching the films like Blood on the Pavement, then took the test and a 16 year old was womanhandling 2000 pounds of deadly weaponized metal and plastic.] ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2013, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-germans-lane-discipline-significantly-reduce-congestion-in-the-usa/670139/22 "2013-10-02T10:08:08Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Bro, we’re talking about _Germans_ here, not the modest and self-effacing Dutch. Americans ain’t got nothin’ on them for self-importance and self-entitlement. 😉 Hell. you don’t get more self-important or self-entitled than Israelis, but even here, if you flash your lights at someone in the left lane, nine times out of ten they’ll either speed up, or move to the left and let you pass. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2013, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-germans-lane-discipline-significantly-reduce-congestion-in-the-usa/670139/23 "2013-10-02T10:21:22Z")
By which I mean, move to the right. ---
**Author:** ![Mops](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mops/32/16494_2.png) [@Mops](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mops)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2013, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-germans-lane-discipline-significantly-reduce-congestion-in-the-usa/670139/24 "2013-10-02T11:05:06Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > AFAIK, in most states, you’d have to improve the laws first. It’s usually required that slower traffic keep right, but I don’t think there’s usually a requirement that the faster traffic pass on the left. … I assume that changing the law would not be enough in the US - given the existence of left exits (something that I considered pretty weird when in the US) current practice is poured into billions of dollars’ worth of concrete. > [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > … (How does that work in Germany? You’re doing the right thing and cruising in the right lane. As you’re going along at 150 km/h, you come across a truck being driven by an idiot in the left lane. Idiots are a universal phenomenon. It’s going 100 km/h and it’s not getting over any time soon. Do you really have to wait patiently behind it until one or the other gets off of the autobahn?) Legally, overtaking with less than 10 km/h speed difference can incur a fine of 80 euros and one point on your license. Practically, in such a situation you indicate to the left (as if you’d mean to climb the guard rail to overtake) and the driver before you will step on it. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2013, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-germans-lane-discipline-significantly-reduce-congestion-in-the-usa/670139/25 "2013-10-02T23:28:10Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > You’re doing the right thing and cruising in the right lane. As you’re going along at 150 km/h, you come across a truck being driven by an idiot in the left lane. Idiots are a universal phenomenon. It’s going 100 km/h and it’s not getting over any time soon. Do you really have to wait patiently behind it until one or the other gets off of the autobahn?) It’s very unlikely to happen. The concept that you must stay on the right when driving a slow vehicle and pass only on the left is fairly ingrained in Europe. It’s not solely a matter of law. It’s that all drivers expect this behaviour. Not passing on the right, not driving slowly in the left lane are amongst the most basic concepts of driving. It’s perceived as unacceptable and stupidely dangerous to do otherwise (even more dangerous since nobody expects another vehicle to pass on the right). ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-germans-lane-discipline-significantly-reduce-congestion-in-the-usa/670139/26 "2013-10-03T02:48:50Z")
LA’s problem is not traffic laws or anything so much as too many damn people. This thread is about differences between two counties, but I see some of you Americans talking and I realize that your traffic laws/mores are completely different than those I’m used to (NorCal, Northern Nevada). “Left lane for passing only” is an alien concept to me. Those “slow traffic stay to the right” signs mean trucks, please don’t hog the left lane unless passing a slower truck\*. > [@Mops](#): > > I’d expect it to be a nightmare for me if overtaking on the right were allowed in Germany - I’d always risk being blindsided when merging back in the right lane. Not legal in many places in the US (I don’t know of any exceptions personally, but can’t say with certainty that they don’t exist). That doesn’t mean that people don’t do it. Generally, driving faster in the right lane is fine because, as stated above, the left lane isn’t always the fastest, and certainly isn’t almost empty in most areas. Just don’t go right, pass the car, and then immediately go left. But really, I hope you turn your head when you switch to either lane. > [@Mops](#): > > I assume that changing the law would not be enough in the US - given the existence of left exits (something that I considered pretty weird when in the US) current practice is poured into billions of dollars’ worth of concrete. I can’t remember ever seeing that either, unless it is 1) an “exit” to switch freeways, or 2) on a highway (defined as open to cross-traffic but you have rightaway most of the time), turning to side streets means sometimes you make a left. I don’t doubt that this occurred wherever you were, just not something you see everywhere in this country. \*Weird traffic sign I saw on a highway two weeks ago: a sign that said “Speed limit 55 mph” followed by “Trucks and autos with trailers max 55 mph.” How do I interpret that? Go 55, unless you big, in which case go 55? Or speed limit is 55, but wink wink you can go faster as long as you’re not a truck? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-germans-lane-discipline-significantly-reduce-congestion-in-the-usa/670139/27 "2013-10-03T03:27:48Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Hell. you don’t get more self-important or self-entitled than Israelis, but even here, if you flash your lights at someone in the left lane, nine times out of ten they’ll either speed up, or move to the left and let you pass. The Germans taught your people well. **Alessan** , forgive me, but I was going to burst if I didn’t say it. I know, I know, I’m blaming the victim for my own lack of fortitude, but your people taught me that you can’t leave a straight line just laying there. Someone will pick it up. Just be glad it was a friend who stabbed you in the back. ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-germans-lane-discipline-significantly-reduce-congestion-in-the-usa/670139/28 "2013-10-03T03:52:32Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Bro, we’re talking about _Germans_ here, not the modest and self-effacing Dutch. Americans ain’t got nothin’ on them for self-importance and self-entitlement. 😉 The question posed by the OP is … > [@](#): > > Could the Germans’ lane discipline significantly reduce congestion in the USA? Hence my response. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-germans-lane-discipline-significantly-reduce-congestion-in-the-usa/670139/29 "2013-10-03T07:48:57Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > Not legal in many places in the US (I don’t know of any exceptions personally, but can’t say with certainty that they don’t exist). That doesn’t mean that people don’t do it. It’s legal to pass in a lane to the right in both states that you’re familiar with. ([California](http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc21754.htm), [Nevada](http://www.leg.state.nv.us/NRS/NRS-484B.html#NRS484BSec210)). ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-germans-lane-discipline-significantly-reduce-congestion-in-the-usa/670139/30 "2013-10-03T08:06:16Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > **Alessan** , forgive me, but I was going to burst if I didn’t say it. I know, I know, I’m blaming the victim for my own lack of fortitude, but your people taught me that you can’t leave a straight line just laying there. Someone will pick it up. Just be glad it was a friend who stabbed you in the back. As we say around here, the book is open and the hand is writing. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-germans-lane-discipline-significantly-reduce-congestion-in-the-usa/670139/31 "2013-10-03T12:09:51Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > I can’t remember ever seeing that either, unless it is 1) an “exit” to switch freeways, or 2) on a highway (defined as open to cross-traffic but you have rightaway most of the time), turning to side streets means sometimes you make a left. I don’t doubt that this occurred wherever you were, just not something you see everywhere in this country. I agree, it’s not that common as it’s extremely bad highway design. Off the top of my head, I can only think of a few left exits I’ve seen that are actual exits and not an interchange. I-25/I-40 in Albuquerque used to have left exit interchanges until they rebuilt it, I-80 E to I-81 N is a left exit, staying on I-90 eastbound (and going through the Exit 24 tollbooth) on the NYS Thruway where it heads south as I-87 is a left exit. That’s three interchanges off the top of my head. Left exits are generally a question of available land and right-of-way issues. I think that one of the plazas on I-44 in Oklahoma is placed in the median and is a left exit and left entrance both ways. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-germans-lane-discipline-significantly-reduce-congestion-in-the-usa/670139/32 "2013-10-03T13:47:05Z")
> [@dasmoocher](#): > > I moved to CA from the East Coast and I don’t get it either. I regularly commuted from San Francisco to San Jose on the 280. It seems like they like the left lane but not to go that fast. You can see a good distance on some stretches and there will be a solid line of cars in the left lane while cars in the right lanes are passing them by in the thinner traffic in those lanes. Of course on the 101 in rush hour, no one goes anywhere fast. Please, do not infect our NorCal language here with an extraneous “the” in front of freeway numbers. We are trying to keep those all south of San Luis Obispo! 😉 In MA, where I spent most of my youth, you would quickly get a flashing headlight if you were blocking the left lane, and most people know to pull over. Here, they will wave to you and smile, and think they are being cute. (Cue: \* If I had a rocket launcher…\*) I’ve even had people \*slow down \*in response to that. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-germans-lane-discipline-significantly-reduce-congestion-in-the-usa/670139/33 "2013-10-03T14:10:03Z")
In Illinois AFAIK it is still the law that you must move out of the left lane unless you are actively passing another car. This is never enforced, and I regularly encounter dawdling drivers who refuse to budge from the left lane, so that cars zooming up on them dart into the lane to their right (where I might be driving) to get around. And interesting thing I noticed in China was that some highways had different speed limits on each lane – 80 kph right lane, 100 kph center lane, 120 kph left lane. Mind you, they had _no_ driving discipline and traffic that would make the Italians blanch, but I wonder if something like that setup might encourage American drivers to stratify logically. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-germans-lane-discipline-significantly-reduce-congestion-in-the-usa/670139/34 "2013-10-03T16:22:38Z")
As long as we’re discussing crazy CA driving issues… What’s up with the fact that at least one out of four cars there doesn’t have a lic plate? It seems to be optional to have one from what I can tell. It must be a great place to be a car thief. The exits on the highways don’t have numbers. Just a name. So if I’m at exit 33 and I’m looking for exit 36 I don’t know how many exits I have left since they are all just called “Main St Exit” or whatever. Madness. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-germans-lane-discipline-significantly-reduce-congestion-in-the-usa/670139/35 "2013-10-03T17:28:37Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > The exits on the highways don’t have numbers. Just a name. So if I’m at exit 33 and I’m looking for exit 36 I don’t know how many exits I have left since they are all just called “Main St Exit” or whatever. > > Madness. How can you be looking for Exit 36 if they don’t have numbers? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-germans-lane-discipline-significantly-reduce-congestion-in-the-usa/670139/36 "2013-10-03T17:29:50Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > And interesting thing I noticed in China was that some highways had different speed limits on each lane – 80 kph right lane, 100 kph center lane, 120 kph left lane. Mind you, they had _no_ driving discipline and traffic that would make the Italians blanch, but I wonder if something like that setup might encourage American drivers to stratify logically. What would help more would be a speed _minimum_ on coasting in the non-rightmost lanes. Having differing _maximum_ speeds might or might not help but would still leave the problem of people dawdling in the left hand lane when it is free to move over, or speed matching the car on their right. (I say coasting because there should be leeway if you are stuck behind a slowpoke in the right hand lane and can’t get up to the minimum before moving over.) ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-germans-lane-discipline-significantly-reduce-congestion-in-the-usa/670139/37 "2013-10-03T17:31:38Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > How can you be looking for Exit 36 if they don’t have numbers? They could be labelled only by exit number on the map, but only by street name on the signs. ---
**Author:** ![gazpacho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6f9a4e/32.png) [@gazpacho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gazpacho)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-germans-lane-discipline-significantly-reduce-congestion-in-the-usa/670139/38 "2013-10-03T18:11:00Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > They could be labelled only by exit number on the map, but only by street name on the signs. In the San Diego and LA area they are labeled both by name and by number. The name of the exit is generally what is on signs leading upto the exits. The sign with the number for the exit is generally only posted just at the exit which does make it hard to use the exit number in directions for people. I don’t think I have seen a street map which labeled the exits by either number or street name. You can usually infer the street name for the exit by looking at the street names on the map but sometimes exits get you onto two or more streets and not all of them are on the freeway signs. Directions from google maps gives the street names for the exits when you print out directions. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-germans-lane-discipline-significantly-reduce-congestion-in-the-usa/670139/39 "2013-10-03T18:14:03Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > What would help more would be a speed _minimum_ on coasting in the non-rightmost lanes. Having differing _maximum_ speeds might or might not help but would still leave the problem of people dawdling in the left hand lane when it is free to move over, or speed matching the car on their right. (I say coasting because there should be leeway if you are stuck behind a slowpoke in the right hand lane and can’t get up to the minimum before moving over.) I’ve seen minimum speed in the US. Three guesses which state 😃 Florida of course! Where you want to get dinner at Waffle House by 4 pm, but aren’t in that much of a hurry because it wastes gas and the Kaiser would like that, wouldn’t he? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2013, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-germans-lane-discipline-significantly-reduce-congestion-in-the-usa/670139/40 "2013-10-03T18:26:27Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > As long as we’re discussing crazy CA driving issues… > > What’s up with the fact that at least one out of four cars there doesn’t have a lic plate? It seems to be optional to have one from what I can tell. It must be a great place to be a car thief. > > The exits on the highways don’t have numbers. Just a name. So if I’m at exit 33 and I’m looking for exit 36 I don’t know how many exits I have left since they are all just called “Main St Exit” or whatever. > > Madness. It’s especially interesting along that route I was talking about, above, for Hwy 1 in Monterey County. There must be 5 different exits for “Del Monte Boulevard” between Moss Landing and Carmel. The joke is to tell someone to “take the Del Monte exist-- you can’t miss it”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-germans-lane-discipline-significantly-reduce-congestion-in-the-usa/670139.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-germans-lane-discipline-significantly-reduce-congestion-in-the-usa/670139.md?page=3)