# Could the gold in Ft. Knox be audited without moving the bars? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 15, 2010, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-gold-in-ft-knox-be-audited-without-moving-the-bars/553790 "2010-09-15T00:25:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-gold-in-ft-knox-be-audited-without-moving-the-bars/553790/1 "2010-09-15T00:25:26Z")
Following up on this comment from a thread that was about something, I think it was about something anyway. > [@Breathalyzer test challenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/breathalyzer-test-challenge/553551/81): > > If you attempt to audit that gold you will lose more than $10 in gold dust, unless you have some way to audit that pile without moving the bars. So if Ft. Knox wasn’t built on top of a scale and water-tight, is there a way to do that? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-gold-in-ft-knox-be-audited-without-moving-the-bars/553790/2 "2010-09-15T00:27:20Z")
Also, in accounting terms, is there a difference between ‘audit’ and ‘inventory’? If so, do you need to actually see the gold at all for an audit, or do just need to examine the books? ---
**Author:** ![jnglmassiv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f07891/32.png) [@jnglmassiv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jnglmassiv)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-gold-in-ft-knox-be-audited-without-moving-the-bars/553790/3 "2010-09-15T00:35:47Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > So if Ft. Knox wasn’t built on top of a scale and water-tight, is there a way to do that? From the photos I’ve seen, the gold appears to be already stacked bare bar on bar. I don’t think you could audit/inventory/count without contact and loss now. But you could do something like encapsulation and RFID for future counts. ---
**Author:** ![hogarth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hogarth/32/1773_2.png) [@hogarth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hogarth)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-gold-in-ft-knox-be-audited-without-moving-the-bars/553790/4 "2010-09-15T00:37:38Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Also, in accounting terms, is there a difference between ‘audit’ and ‘inventory’? If so, do you need to actually see the gold at all for an audit, or do just need to examine the books? An audit would probably involve going over procedures as well, not just a physical inventory. Last year, there was a big kerfuffle about [missing gold at the Canadian Mint](http://www.ottawacitizen.com/Business/Mint+account+missing+gold/1656084/story.html). So there’s definitely a need for periodic audits. ---
**Author:** ![NinetyWt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/cc9497/32.png) [@NinetyWt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinetyWt)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-gold-in-ft-knox-be-audited-without-moving-the-bars/553790/5 "2010-09-15T01:10:03Z")
Couldn’t geometry be used? If all the bars were in stacks of equal size? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-gold-in-ft-knox-be-audited-without-moving-the-bars/553790/6 "2010-09-15T01:18:01Z")
> [@NinetyWt](#): > > Couldn’t geometry be used? If all the bars were in stacks of equal size? How would we know if they were solid, or gold? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-gold-in-ft-knox-be-audited-without-moving-the-bars/553790/7 "2010-09-15T03:02:43Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > > [@NinetyWt](#): > > > > Couldn’t geometry be used? If all the bars were in stacks of equal size? > > How would we know if they were solid, or gold? Or solid gold? ---
**Author:** ![FuzzyOgre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@FuzzyOgre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FuzzyOgre)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-gold-in-ft-knox-be-audited-without-moving-the-bars/553790/8 "2010-09-15T03:40:34Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > > [@TriPolar](#): > > > > How would we know if they were solid, or gold? > > Or solid gold? We’ll just have to play it at the discos and see if the Foxy Stellas think its solid. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-gold-in-ft-knox-be-audited-without-moving-the-bars/553790/9 "2010-09-15T03:53:00Z")
Is there a way to measure it via electronics? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-gold-in-ft-knox-be-audited-without-moving-the-bars/553790/10 "2010-09-15T03:58:11Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > > [@TriPolar](#): > > > > How would we know if they were solid, or gold? > > Or solid gold? I was sitting in my bathtub when this great idea came to me… ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-gold-in-ft-knox-be-audited-without-moving-the-bars/553790/11 "2010-09-15T04:04:23Z")
> [@](#): > > •The only gold removed has been very small quantities used to test the purity of gold during regularly scheduled audits. Except for these samples, no gold has been transferred to or from the Depository for many years. [http://www.usmint.gov/about\_the\_mint/fun\_facts/?flash=yes&action=fun\_facts13](http://www.usmint.gov/about_the_mint/fun_facts/?flash=yes&action=fun_facts13) ---
**Author:** ![ChrisBooth12](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@ChrisBooth12](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChrisBooth12)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-gold-in-ft-knox-be-audited-without-moving-the-bars/553790/12 "2010-09-15T04:17:38Z")
Um don’t we know how much is already in there? And i assume we count what is going out? So we should know right? Does handleing the bars really make them loose that much? ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-gold-in-ft-knox-be-audited-without-moving-the-bars/553790/13 "2010-09-15T04:22:14Z")
I suppose you could map out the propagation of sound waves through the mass. Changes in speed would reflect (ha) changes in density. Would make a good thesis. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-gold-in-ft-knox-be-audited-without-moving-the-bars/553790/14 "2010-09-15T04:34:13Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Is there a way to measure it via electronics? Computer Aided Tomography should be able to verify that it’s solid, and a very accurate modeling of the volume. The trick is figuring out if its all gold. I’m over my head here, but maybe xrays or gamma rays (which would be needed for the CAT) might be able to determine if its gold by measuring how much radiation is blocked by the gold. Or maybe just something that measures neutron emissions from breakdown of isotopes. Maybe Chronos will drop by and suggest something. ---
**Author:** ![missred](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/missred/32/14096_2.png) [@missred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/missred)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-gold-in-ft-knox-be-audited-without-moving-the-bars/553790/15 "2010-09-15T04:54:31Z")
A physical inventory could be performed, IME, without moving all of the gold. Standard procedure for PIs in most industries is to do a first count as labeled. A second count would be performed for variances in any location. Product counted during the second count would be moved to ensure that there were no “holes” in the location and a percentage audited to assure that the item is the correct one (bars, bouillion, coinage), the correct size / weight and the correct purity. Any second count that didn’t match either the system quantity or the first count would have a third count performed and 100% of product audited. Whatever variances are found after a physical inventory are usually (and in the case of Ft. Knox, I would hope definitely) reconciled for the root cause, then inventory adjusted accordingly. So, in my professional (I work in inventory management) opinion, not all of the gold would have to be moved, but at least some of it would. ---
**Author:** ![Fubaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@Fubaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fubaya)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-gold-in-ft-knox-be-audited-without-moving-the-bars/553790/16 "2010-09-15T06:39:45Z")
Is there proof that moving the bars would “lose more than $10 in gold dust”? The weight of gold bars is pretty precisely measured and anything that comes up short can be suspect, but a google image search shows people posing with them and stacking them for photo ops without worrying too much about devaluing them with every touch. Anyway, if they’re stored on some sort of pallet (makes them easier to steal in the movies) so you could weigh the pallet and see if it adds up to X bars. They would probably test random bars, but I don’t think any audit would go so far as to prove every bar is solid and all gold because that’s done when they’re minted. Security is pretty tight -it takes 10 people to open the vault- and it’s pretty much impossible that anyone would have carried in fake bars and switched them with gold bars from the middle of the pile. So, basically, an audit needs to check that the books and inventory match. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-gold-in-ft-knox-be-audited-without-moving-the-bars/553790/17 "2010-09-15T06:44:27Z")
> [@Fubaya](#): > > Is there proof that moving the bars would “lose more than $10 in gold dust”? The weight of gold bars is pretty precisely measured and anything that comes up short can be suspect, but a google image search shows people posing with them and stacking them for photo ops without worrying too much about devaluing them with every touch. > > Anyway, if they’re stored on some sort of pallet (makes them easier to steal in the movies) so you could weigh the pallet and see if it adds up to X bars. They would probably test random bars, but I don’t think any audit would go so far as to prove every bar is solid and all gold because that’s done when they’re minted. Security is pretty tight -it takes 10 people to open the vault- and it’s pretty much impossible that anyone would have carried in fake bars and switched them with gold bars from the middle of the pile. So, basically, an audit needs to check that the books and inventory match. If the Czar of Sarcasm says so, I, and all other loyal (or secretly treacherous) Sarcasts must accept his word as infallible. Besides, who said it made sense? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-gold-in-ft-knox-be-audited-without-moving-the-bars/553790/18 "2010-09-15T07:10:20Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Also, in accounting terms, is there a difference between ‘audit’ and ‘inventory’? If so, do you need to actually see the gold at all for an audit, or do just need to examine the books? In a French national organism that holds all sort of valuables, the yearly involves people going down in the secured areas and actually check the presence of some random elements. Besides, traditionnally, they check the loose change of the day and a container of various items (I think it includes an old watch, for instance) that has been there unclaimed forever (more than a century at least). But the whole procedure is more symbolic than anything. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-gold-in-ft-knox-be-audited-without-moving-the-bars/553790/19 "2010-09-15T12:33:47Z")
> [@ChrisBooth12](#): > > Um don’t we know how much is already in there? And i assume we count what is going out? So we should know right? Well, the whole point of an audit is to count what’s actually there, and compare that with what we think is there (based on what went in and out). Of course, the whole discussion is a tiny bit silly. $10 of gold dust is nothing compared to the total cost of an audit. I mean, how much labor cost would it take just to move all those gold bars, let alone costs of security, professional auditors, depreciation on all the pallet jacks and other equipment, replacing labels or containers damaged during the moving, etc.? ---
**Author:** ![Fubaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@Fubaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fubaya)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-gold-in-ft-knox-be-audited-without-moving-the-bars/553790/20 "2010-09-15T12:50:12Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > If the Czar of Sarcasm says so, I, and all other loyal (or secretly treacherous) Sarcasts must accept his word as infallible. Besides, who said it made sense? Is he the current Czar or the former one under Bush? I’m still on the fence about the current one, but that Bush Czar was just a crony and… oh, don’t get me started, we all know what happened with him. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-gold-in-ft-knox-be-audited-without-moving-the-bars/553790.md?page=2)