# Could the gold in Ft. Knox be audited without moving the bars? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 15, 2010, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-gold-in-ft-knox-be-audited-without-moving-the-bars/553790 "2010-09-15T00:25:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-gold-in-ft-knox-be-audited-without-moving-the-bars/553790/21 "2010-09-15T13:14:27Z")
> [@Quercus](#): > > > [@ChrisBooth12](#): > > > > Um don’t we know how much is already in there? And i assume we count what is going out? So we should know right? > > Well, the whole point of an audit is to count what’s actually there, and compare that with what we think is there (based on what went in and out). The gold has been guarded by mere humans and humans are known for their bold acts of thievery. When the Spainish were stealing all of the gold and silver from the Aztecs and Inca’s they actaully chopped off assayers heads for reporting the gold weight incorrectly to the King of Spain and it still didn’t deter thieves. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-gold-in-ft-knox-be-audited-without-moving-the-bars/553790/22 "2010-09-15T15:29:47Z")
It’s only $10, why make a big deal out of it? ---
**Author:** ![control-z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@control-z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/control-z)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-gold-in-ft-knox-be-audited-without-moving-the-bars/553790/23 "2010-09-15T15:41:05Z")
Don’t move the bars, eh? Step 1: Get job at Fort Knox Step 2: Secretly replace some gold bars in center of a stack with lead bars Step 3: Profit! Unless of course it’s followed by: Step 4: Federal prison. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-gold-in-ft-knox-be-audited-without-moving-the-bars/553790/24 "2010-09-15T15:47:25Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > > [@Czarcasm](#): > > > > Or solid gold? > > I was sitting in my bathtub when this great idea came to me… Yeah, well, you don’t smell so good, yourself. If you’re having trouble getting this, try pronouncing the name of a certain SyFy show out loud. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-gold-in-ft-knox-be-audited-without-moving-the-bars/553790/25 "2010-09-15T15:54:58Z")
> [@Fubaya](#): > > Is there proof that moving the bars would “lose more than $10 in gold dust”? The weight of gold bars is pretty precisely measured and anything that comes up short can be suspect, but a google image search shows people posing with them and stacking them for photo ops without worrying too much about devaluing them with every touch. We are talking about moving approximately 4600 tons of gold, at $1300 an ounce. If a physical attempt at auditing all that gold were attempted, I highly doubt you could keep the loss at such a ridiculously low amount as $10. ---
**Author:** ![notsoheavyd3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/85e7bf/32.png) [@notsoheavyd3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/notsoheavyd3)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-gold-in-ft-knox-be-audited-without-moving-the-bars/553790/26 "2010-09-15T16:18:25Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > It’s only $10, why make a big deal out of it? I’d think that simply the uncertainty in the actual mass of the gold in Fort Know would work out to be more than $10 worth of gold. (Thus making worrying about $10 worth of gold pointless.) ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-gold-in-ft-knox-be-audited-without-moving-the-bars/553790/27 "2010-09-15T18:47:19Z")
All good points. The $10 figure comes from the discrepancy found from the last inventory of the gold at Ft. Knox. The question isn’t whether $10 or more or less would be lost in the inventory process. The question is: \*\*Could the gold in Ft. Knox be audited without moving the bars? \*\* ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-gold-in-ft-knox-be-audited-without-moving-the-bars/553790/28 "2010-09-15T18:50:00Z")
Since our money is not based on gold reserves any more, why do we need to count it? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-gold-in-ft-knox-be-audited-without-moving-the-bars/553790/29 "2010-09-15T19:10:04Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Since our money is not based on gold reserves any more, why do we need to count it? Doesn’t matter for the purposes of this thread. ---
**Author:** ![dracoi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@dracoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dracoi)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-gold-in-ft-knox-be-audited-without-moving-the-bars/553790/30 "2010-09-15T19:16:23Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > All good points. The $10 figure comes from the discrepancy found from the last inventory of the gold at Ft. Knox. The question isn’t whether $10 or more or less would be lost in the inventory process. > > The question is: \*\*Could the gold in Ft. Knox be audited without moving the bars? \*\* To answer the simplified question: absolutely not. Auditors might do spot counts, - say, 10% of all bars would be inspected - but an audit could not be done properly unless some bars were picked up, weighed, visually inspected, etc. One example of this in banks should help make it obvious why. Auditors at a bank were counting bags of coins and simply went by the fact that bags were the right weight and correctly labeled. However, a new auditor was hired who misunderstood the procedure - he dumped the bags out to count the coins, rather than just counting bags. He discovered that a bank manager had been putting pennies and nickels in the bottom of quarter bags and had stolen many, many thousands of dollars that way. (I do not know specific names or more details, but this was provided as a real-life example in my CPA Exam review materials). ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-gold-in-ft-knox-be-audited-without-moving-the-bars/553790/31 "2010-09-15T20:13:37Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > …The question is: \*\*Could the gold in Ft. Knox be audited without moving the bars? \*\* Yes, but not accurately or reliably. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2010, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-gold-in-ft-knox-be-audited-without-moving-the-bars/553790/32 "2010-09-15T20:25:24Z")
> [@BrotherCadfael](#): > > > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > > > I was sitting in my bathtub when this great idea came to me… > > Yeah, well, you don’t smell so good, yourself. Clever. Bad, but clever. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2010, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-gold-in-ft-knox-be-audited-without-moving-the-bars/553790/33 "2010-09-16T05:22:14Z")
> [@dracoi](#): > > > [@TriPolar](#): > > > > All good points. The $10 figure comes from the discrepancy found from the last inventory of the gold at Ft. Knox. The question isn’t whether $10 or more or less would be lost in the inventory process. > > > > The question is: \*\*Could the gold in Ft. Knox be audited without moving the bars? \*\* > > To answer the simplified question: absolutely not. > > Auditors might do spot counts, - say, 10% of all bars would be inspected - but an audit could not be done properly unless some bars were picked up, weighed, visually inspected, etc. > > One example of this in banks should help make it obvious why. Auditors at a bank were counting bags of coins and simply went by the fact that bags were the right weight and correctly labeled. However, a new auditor was hired who misunderstood the procedure - he dumped the bags out to count the coins, rather than just counting bags. He discovered that a bank manager had been putting pennies and nickels in the bottom of quarter bags and had stolen many, many thousands of dollars that way. (I do not know specific names or more details, but this was provided as a real-life example in my CPA Exam review materials). Another problem is that there is more than one type of gold bar in that pile. There are pure gold bars, and there are coin bars. Coin bars are bars made up of melted gold coins of various purities. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2010, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-gold-in-ft-knox-be-audited-without-moving-the-bars/553790/34 "2010-09-16T06:35:29Z")
My 9-year old son is interested in science and a few days ago we got talking about the value of gold. I wanted to explain to him that it couldn’t be faked: metals heavier than gold are even more valuable. I Googled List of Metals by Density. Imagine my surprise to learn that tungsten is almost (.997) as dense as gold! Searching this thread I see no mention of tungsten. 😕 My Google-fu is very poor, but “Counterfeit gold tungsten” will conjure up stories about federal vaults being defrauded, etc. Is any of it true? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2010, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-gold-in-ft-knox-be-audited-without-moving-the-bars/553790/35 "2010-09-16T07:18:51Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > My 9-year old son is interested in science and a few days ago we got talking about the value of gold. I wanted to explain to him that it couldn’t be faked: metals heavier than gold are even more valuable. I Googled List of Metals by Density. > > Imagine my surprise to learn that tungsten is almost (.997) as dense as gold! Searching this thread I see no mention of tungsten. 😕 > > My Google-fu is very poor, but “Counterfeit gold tungsten” will conjure up stories about federal vaults being defrauded, etc. Is any of it true? There were a large number of tungsten references in this thread previously. However, following a suggestion to audit the tungsten content of the thread, it was discovered that all the tungsten was missing. More information is available by entering the words ‘Ft. Knox Ron Paul Tungsten Audit’ in a search tool such as Google. There will be many pages of irrelevant references to Ft. Knox, Ron Paul, and Gold. The relevant article titled ‘Structure analysis of oxygen-adsorbed tungsten’ is typically found on somewhere following the 323rd page of search results (assuming an average of 10 - 12 entries per page). Unfortunately searching the title of the article only lists unrelated articles that have nothing to with the 1953 tungsten audit. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2010, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-gold-in-ft-knox-be-audited-without-moving-the-bars/553790/36 "2010-09-16T10:57:40Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > There were a large number of tungsten references in this thread previously. However, following a suggestion to audit the tungsten content of the thread, it was discovered that all the tungsten was missing. > > More information is available by entering the words ‘Ft. Knox Ron Paul Tungsten Audit’ in a search tool such as Google. There will be many pages of irrelevant references to Ft. Knox, Ron Paul, and Gold. The relevant article titled ‘Structure analysis of oxygen-adsorbed tungsten’ is typically found on somewhere following the 323rd page of search results (assuming an average of 10 - 12 entries per page). Unfortunately searching the title of the article only lists unrelated articles that have nothing to with the 1953 tungsten audit. My question was serious. Obviously I didn’t include Ron Paul as a Google search term. For example: [http://news.coinupdate.com/largest-private-refinery-discovers-gold-plated-tungsten-bar-0171/](http://news.coinupdate.com/largest-private-refinery-discovers-gold-plated-tungsten-bar-0171/) This could be nonsense; I don’t know – that’s why I asked. I hope it’s not rude to suggest your flippant answer failed to enlighten me. I’m not asking about Fort Knox; I thought the Q/A phase had progressed to the point where minor hijacks are permitted. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2010, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-gold-in-ft-knox-be-audited-without-moving-the-bars/553790/37 "2010-09-16T14:41:15Z")
> [@pravnik](#): > > > [@BrotherCadfael](#): > > > > Yeah, well, you don’t smell so good, yourself. > > Clever. Bad, but clever. 😃 I stole the joke from Benny Hill. Credit where credit is due. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2010, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-gold-in-ft-knox-be-audited-without-moving-the-bars/553790/38 "2010-09-16T15:02:17Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > > [@TriPolar](#): > > > > There were a large number of tungsten references in this thread previously. However, following a suggestion to audit the tungsten content of the thread, it was discovered that all the tungsten was missing. > > > > More information is available by entering the words ‘Ft. Knox Ron Paul Tungsten Audit’ in a search tool such as Google. There will be many pages of irrelevant references to Ft. Knox, Ron Paul, and Gold. The relevant article titled ‘Structure analysis of oxygen-adsorbed tungsten’ is typically found on somewhere following the 323rd page of search results (assuming an average of 10 - 12 entries per page). Unfortunately searching the title of the article only lists unrelated articles that have nothing to with the 1953 tungsten audit. > > My question was serious. Obviously I didn’t include Ron Paul as a Google search term. For example: > [http://news.coinupdate.com/largest-private-refinery-discovers-gold-plated-tungsten-bar-0171/](http://news.coinupdate.com/largest-private-refinery-discovers-gold-plated-tungsten-bar-0171/) > This could be nonsense; I don’t know – that’s why I asked. I hope it’s not rude to suggest your flippant answer failed to enlighten me. > > I’m not asking about Fort Knox; I thought the Q/A phase had progressed to the point where minor hijacks are permitted. Gold-plated tungsten-[Less than meets the eye.](http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article17820.html) Edited to add: [On the OTHER hand…](http://www.tungsten-alloy.com/en/alloy11.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2010, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-gold-in-ft-knox-be-audited-without-moving-the-bars/553790/39 "2010-09-16T15:04:44Z")
If they’re stacked up, you’d have to shift them around so you could bite each one. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2010, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-gold-in-ft-knox-be-audited-without-moving-the-bars/553790/40 "2010-09-16T15:15:47Z")
Mmmmm. Tungsten. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-gold-in-ft-knox-be-audited-without-moving-the-bars/553790.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-gold-in-ft-knox-be-audited-without-moving-the-bars/553790.md?page=3)