# Could the money spent on the Israel-Arab conflict have solved the Palestinian problem? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 7, 2011, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-money-spent-on-the-israel-arab-conflict-have-solved-the-palestinian-problem/573830 "2011-03-07T20:35:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-money-spent-on-the-israel-arab-conflict-have-solved-the-palestinian-problem/573830/21 "2011-03-11T20:08:24Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > You could sawp “Israel/Israelis” for “Palestine/Palestinians” here and it would read just as well. Eh no. Israel keeps its agreements. They don’t initiate attacks and terrorism on others because its trying to get what it wants (by the way, using isolated and rare instances of Israeli violence by random extremist groups as an example are an invalid argument) What the Israelis want is peace. What Palenstians want is dead Israelis. For the most part. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-money-spent-on-the-israel-arab-conflict-have-solved-the-palestinian-problem/573830/22 "2011-03-11T20:29:05Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > And here we go again with the “You dont know much about this, do you?” routine… You know, I think it remains in the domain of the humanly possible to educate others without permanently patronizing them. Lighten up Francis. I was making a joke and gently teasing the guy for having a badly worded response. Also, why would I feel the need to “educate him” since had he worded his response better he’d have been largely correct? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-money-spent-on-the-israel-arab-conflict-have-solved-the-palestinian-problem/573830/23 "2011-03-11T20:36:18Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Eh no. Israel keeps its agreements. They don’t initiate attacks and terrorism on others because its trying to get what it wants (by the way, using isolated and rare instances of Israeli violence by random extremist groups as an example are an invalid argument). The Irgun which was certainly thought of as a terrorist organization morphed into the Likud Party and Menachem Begin(leader of the Irgun) and Yitzhak Shamir(leader of Lehi) both became Israeli Prime Ministers. Granted, it took place decades after their “terrorist” activities had ended. > [@](#): > > What the Israelis want is peace. What Palenstians want is dead Israelis. For the most part. Well, that’s one way of looking at it, but I think a better way of looking at it is the Palestinians want the land they think belongs to them back and the Israelis don’t want to give it up. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2011, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-money-spent-on-the-israel-arab-conflict-have-solved-the-palestinian-problem/573830/24 "2011-03-11T23:21:26Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > The Irgun which was certainly thought of as a terrorist organization morphed into the Likud Party and Menachem Begin(leader of the Irgun) and Yitzhak Shamir(leader of Lehi) both became Israeli Prime Ministers. > > Granted, it took place decades after their “terrorist” activities had ended. Things have changed, as you acknowledge. If, in 50 years, Hamas becomes a normal political party, I wouldn’t continue to refer to them as a terrorist organization. > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Well, that’s one way of looking at it, but I think a better way of looking at it is the Palestinians want the land they think belongs to them back and the Israelis don’t want to give it up. They’re not getting it back. No way in hell are millions of Israeli’s going to be uprooted again. The Palestinians should consider it lost and give up and quit with the bombing ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2011, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-money-spent-on-the-israel-arab-conflict-have-solved-the-palestinian-problem/573830/25 "2011-03-12T00:00:38Z")
So, **Valteron** , you see why no one especially cared to bite … ---
**Author:** ![Marc\_Xenos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9a140/32.png) [@Marc\_Xenos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marc_Xenos)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2011, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-money-spent-on-the-israel-arab-conflict-have-solved-the-palestinian-problem/573830/26 "2011-03-12T19:00:15Z")
I’ve had to live with Arabs and have spent a lot of time in various Arabic countries. For my personal opinion, there is no such thing as “solving the Palestinian problem.” In the Arab lifestyle, you don’t trust your own brother. You may trust him more than your cousin, but that’s about it. And you only trust your cousin more than anyone outside your family. And even non-family only as much as they’re your tribe. By the time you get to foreign races, you don’t even trust them as humans. If the Israelis were wiped off the face of the earth and the Jew eradicated from history, the Palestinians (and other Arabs) would STILL have a “problem”. The Jew is just the current excuse, but when one excuse is gone, another will take its place. Arabs, for all of history, have distrusted and fought one another, and all the money will not change that. Take any single Arab autocracy and look at their finances. Nearly all the wealth is kept by a ruling family, spent on incredible extravagances for their own pleasure, while the rest of the nation experiences a pathetically low standard of living, and unemployment often exceeds 30%. Money is not the issue. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2011, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-money-spent-on-the-israel-arab-conflict-have-solved-the-palestinian-problem/573830/27 "2011-03-12T19:50:21Z")
“Tribes”? That would mean your “Arab experiences” are quite limited. As evidenced by your input here. But dont let that stop you from making such broad and empty statements. Where would we go if we couldnt despise whole ethnic groups? ---
**Author:** ![Shinna\_Minna\_Ma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f08c70/32.png) [@Shinna\_Minna\_Ma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shinna_Minna_Ma)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2011, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-money-spent-on-the-israel-arab-conflict-have-solved-the-palestinian-problem/573830/28 "2011-03-12T21:58:06Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > What the Israelis want is peace. What Palenstians want is dead Israelis. For the most part. Like [this](http://liveshots.blogs.foxnews.com/2011/03/12/family-slaughtered-by-palestinians/?test=latestnews). Just in case you missed it, since outside of Israel it’s been mashed between Japan and the bus accident in NY. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2011, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-money-spent-on-the-israel-arab-conflict-have-solved-the-palestinian-problem/573830/29 "2011-03-13T02:43:25Z")
Firstly, it is wrong that the children died, as they are not morally responsible for the parents’ conduct. Contrary to the popular view, the parents were fully morally competent. And by their conduct as looters, forfeited their lives. The story omits to identify them as Israelis. _living outside of Israel_. Now take this group: What and how are members of that group doing that can be described as “All the Israelis want is peace”? * * * The real issue is not, per the OP the “Palestinian problem” but in fact the Israel problem for domestic USA. To wit, for an entire generation, North America has been under a relentless blanket of Israeli propaganda. The easy and popular solution has been a simple surrender. This has largely been adopted by both political parties and the US media. As a policy it is heavily influential on US residents, but does not bind discussion on this board. Indeed members from the US will often bring the attitude that anything less than unqualified and unquestioning support of Israel is material evidence of rampant anti-semitism outside the borders of the USA Currently the US is in the unprecedented situation were its MidEast policy is made in full awareness that it is destructive to the US interest in the region, - reliable supply of petroleum products. It serves no other interest than catering to an organised domestic political pressure in the US. Informed and disinterested academics such as Mearsheimer and Walt have made these points. However, currently information that is informed and disinterested has little place in solving the US’s domestic Israel problem. The best hope is that new and independent sources of information can influence domestic policy. Such things as Wikileaks are an example. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2011, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-money-spent-on-the-israel-arab-conflict-have-solved-the-palestinian-problem/573830/30 "2011-03-13T19:54:30Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > Firstly, it is wrong that the children died, as they are not morally responsible for the parents’ conduct. Contrary to the popular view, the parents were fully morally competent. And by their conduct as looters, forfeited their lives. So then you are saying that civilians living on the West Bank, even in an area that the PLO agreed under the Oslo Accords to be part of an area C, under full Israeli control, as the Itamar settlement is, can be slaughtered at will. Do you feel the same about Han Chinese living in occupied Tibet? How about ethnic Russians living in Lithuania, Latvia or Estonia when the Soviet Union was around? Also, I’m not sure how they’re “looters”. They’re living on a hill. I could be wrong, but I don’t think they bulldozed over any Palestinian villages or booted any Palestinians out of their homes to build the settlement. Furthermore, I’m not sure how many Americans, Canadians, or Australians want to start arguing that unarmed civilian “settlers” are legitimate targets. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2011, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-money-spent-on-the-israel-arab-conflict-have-solved-the-palestinian-problem/573830/31 "2011-03-13T20:03:52Z")
If Israel is so mighty and influential and has such great sway over the US, why doesn’t Israel just bulldoze over Gaza and the West Bank, drive every Arab soul out, and annex the entire territory as part of the Israeli state? ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2011, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-money-spent-on-the-israel-arab-conflict-have-solved-the-palestinian-problem/573830/32 "2011-03-13T21:07:20Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > So then you are saying that civilians living on the West Bank, even in an area that the PLO agreed under the Oslo Accords to be part of an area C, under full Israeli control, as the Itamar settlement is, can be slaughtered at will. > > Do you feel the same about Han Chinese living in occupied Tibet? > > How about ethnic Russians living in Lithuania, Latvia or Estonia when the Soviet Union was around? > > Also, I’m not sure how they’re “looters”. They’re living on a hill. I could be wrong, but I don’t think they bulldozed over any Palestinian villages or booted any Palestinians out of their homes to build the settlement. > > Furthermore, I’m not sure how many Americans, Canadians, or Australians want to start arguing that unarmed civilian “settlers” are legitimate targets. Well, unarmed civilians are legitimate targets for Israelis. So, what’s your point exactly here? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2011, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-money-spent-on-the-israel-arab-conflict-have-solved-the-palestinian-problem/573830/33 "2011-03-13T21:24:00Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > Well, unarmed civilians are legitimate targets for Israelis. So, what’s your point exactly here? That’s not true. Israeli soldiers who deliberately kill unarmed civilians have been and are prosecuted. Not nearly as sufficiently as I think they should be, but they are. You might as well claim that the British and the Americans think that “unarmed civilians are legitimate targets”. Anyway, I was merely asking him since he felt that unarmed Israeli civilians in the West Bank are legitimate targets if that also applied to other “settlers” in the world, such as the Han Chinese in Tibet or ethnic Russians in the Baltic Republics during the days of the Soviet Union. Furthermore I added that I’m not sure how many Canadians and Americans want to start arguing this. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-money-spent-on-the-israel-arab-conflict-have-solved-the-palestinian-problem/573830/34 "2011-03-14T19:42:38Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Eh no. Israel keeps its agreements. They don’t initiate attacks and terrorism on others because its trying to get what it wants (by the way, using isolated and rare instances of Israeli violence by random extremist groups as an example are an invalid argument) > > What the Israelis want is peace. What Palenstians want is dead Israelis. For the most part. Here’s a list of israel’s violations of the Oslo agreement : [http://www.robat.scl.net/content/NAD/negotiations/neg\_violations/index.php](http://www.robat.scl.net/content/NAD/negotiations/neg_violations/index.php) ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-money-spent-on-the-israel-arab-conflict-have-solved-the-palestinian-problem/573830/35 "2011-03-14T19:43:42Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > In the way that it wouldn’t be true. In what way wouldn’t it be true? ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2011, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-money-spent-on-the-israel-arab-conflict-have-solved-the-palestinian-problem/573830/36 "2011-03-14T20:40:13Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > However, currently information that is informed and disinterested has little place in solving the US’s domestic Israel problem. The best hope is that new and independent sources of information can influence domestic policy. Such things as Wikileaks are an example. I actually disagree. I think there is a conscience drive to inflict as much injustice as possible and the pendulum is heavily against Palestinians. They are designated zombie in this case, a zombie that can be killed with no moral scruples. I’m not sure that if an average American – whatever that means – would only know, things would be different. No, they would not. I think the biggest lie, the biggest mistake that is being promulgated in US society is that it is democratic. It is up to the point of vote. Afterwards, not so sure. Why do I think like this? Following is an excerpt from the letter that House Leaders sent to Obama requesting him to use veto in a recent initiative by Palestinian Authority ¶ who was working to introduce a Security Council resolution condemning Israel for housing construction in the West Bank and in some neighbourhoods of Jerusalem. Veto was used just this past Friday. So, Abbas one little f\*\* you from White House! Anyways, what caught my attention is wording of the letter related to the issue. I mean in all of the World except US these acts of Israeli government are viewed as criminal and counterproductive, to say the least. Now read what YOUR House Leaders say (it’s hysterical): \*\* from [http://www.aipac.org/NearEastReport/20110203/House\_Leaders\_Obama.html](http://www.aipac.org/NearEastReport/20110203/House_Leaders_Obama.html) [QUOTE=US House Leaders letter] Even as Israel has made significant concessions to pursue peace, Palestinian leaders have hidden behind an unprecedented precondition to avoid coming to the table—namely, a demand that Israel first cease housing construction throughout the West Bank and in some areas of Jerusalem, Israel’s undivided capital. [/QUOTE] An unprecedented precondition? All they are asking Israelis is to stop raping them anally so that they can sit down for a minute and YOUR House Leaders call that “an unprecedented precondition”. Oh, man… the water would be under the bridge if there was a bridge to begin with. ---
**Author:** ![Shinna\_Minna\_Ma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f08c70/32.png) [@Shinna\_Minna\_Ma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shinna_Minna_Ma)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-money-spent-on-the-israel-arab-conflict-have-solved-the-palestinian-problem/573830/37 "2011-03-15T20:33:52Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > All they are asking Israelis is to stop raping them anally so that they can sit down for a minute and YOUR House Leaders call that “an unprecedented precondition”. Umm . . . they did stop building. For nine months. Mr. Abbas dicked around and finally showed up after 8 1/2 months were gone. Then he had the gall to demand that there be a further freeze. If he was so worried about it, perhaps he could have begun negotiating a bit earlier in the process. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-money-spent-on-the-israel-arab-conflict-have-solved-the-palestinian-problem/573830/38 "2011-03-15T21:06:07Z")
> [@Shinna\_Minna\_Ma](#): > > Umm . . . they did stop building. For nine months. Mr. Abbas dicked around and finally showed up after 8 1/2 months were gone. Then he had the gall to demand that there be a further freeze. If he was so worried about it, perhaps he could have begun negotiating a bit earlier in the process. Fucking ragheads, daring to ask Israelis not to take over their remaining territory? Who do they think they are? We can still bomb their asses any minute if they keep up with opening their filthy mouthes. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-money-spent-on-the-israel-arab-conflict-have-solved-the-palestinian-problem/573830/39 "2011-03-18T13:13:10Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > Fucking ragheads, daring to ask Israelis not to take over their remaining territory? Who do they think they are? We can still bomb their asses any minute if they keep up with opening their filthy mouthes. Yes. For the OP: please, do send those $3 billion we are expecting every year for doing nothing (except intercepting “iranian” boats full of weapons from time to time). Also, those $5 million you saved from NPR, please fork that over, too. I don’t know about breaking point, but point of absurdity in US politics has passed long time ago. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2011, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-money-spent-on-the-israel-arab-conflict-have-solved-the-palestinian-problem/573830/40 "2011-03-18T22:32:27Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > So then you are saying … This is all very well and good but fails to answer the standing question: > [@](#): > > “All the Israelis want is peace”? explain how this has any meaning. In fact, it is not the better question. Rather, obviously no-one will defend a proposition so absurd as “Israelis want peace”. The question for you is why anyone would assault the truth in that obscene way? I have my own view, which is that for a section of American Judaism it is a competitive sport to see who can make the more outrageous pro-Israel falsehood, in the most public place, cf Rahm Emmanuel. But that is only my view and I invite yours on this matter of general interest. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-money-spent-on-the-israel-arab-conflict-have-solved-the-palestinian-problem/573830.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-money-spent-on-the-israel-arab-conflict-have-solved-the-palestinian-problem/573830.md?page=3)