# Could the Mongols have conquered Europe? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 8, 2011, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-mongols-have-conquered-europe/599007 "2011-10-08T16:03:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 2\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2015, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-mongols-have-conquered-europe/599007/41 "2015-04-03T19:42:51Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [No, horses do well enough on (some) grains.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equine_nutrition#Grains) Look up “horse grain overload”. > **[Care & Management of Horses](https://books.google.com/books?id=g2Z3kPaJ-wQC&pg=PA140&lpg=PA140&dq=horses%2Bgrain%2Boverload&source=bl&ots=NxdW2cXJNH&sig=m1JPt6-z89n6QQ6w_55rGnI_IeY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=WOweVbzmB8OQsAXl4ICYDg&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAzgU#v=onepage&q=horses%20grain%20overload&f=false)** > > This comprehensive guide provides a commonsense approach to keeping a horse healthy, sound, and happy by encouraging horse owners to center horse-keeping practices around the horse's needs. This in particular seems to be commonly related to excessive grain consumption: > **[Laminitis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laminitis)** > > Laminitis is a inflammation of laminae that affects the feet of ungulates and is found mostly in horses and cattle. Clinical signs include foot tenderness progressing to inability to walk, increased digital pulses, and increased temperature in the hooves. There is also swelling in foot in some cases.Severe cases with outwardly visible clinical signs are known by the colloquial term founder, and progression of the disease will lead to perforation of the coffin bone through the sole of the hoof or ... Also colic: [http://www.extension.umn.edu/agriculture/horse/health/preventing-and-treating-colic/](http://www.extension.umn.edu/agriculture/horse/health/preventing-and-treating-colic/) ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2015, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-mongols-have-conquered-europe/599007/42 "2015-04-03T22:04:28Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Why did such a big empire fall apart and disintegrate to modern day Mongolia when so many other lands they took rebuilt and expanded their influence? Because it was too big. In a medieval milieu there was just no way to maintain centralized control over a state that large for more than a generation. Carving it into appanages was as much practicality as it was partible inheritance and arguably even those units were awkwardly large. Since you had to rule via a certain degree of de-centralization, the unitary state could only be maintained as long as you had some semblance of unity among the ruling families. Once politics reared its ugly head, some degree of dissolution was almost inevitable. Especially as all the constituent parts of the empire had multiple other pressing issues to deal with that prevented anything like a unified drive to reassemble the state forcibly ( not that it wasn’t tried at times ). Indeed one of the remarkable things about the Mongol Empire was actually how _durable_ and lasting it was as an institution. The fact that there was a peaceful succession in the first generation, that a unitary state continued down to 1260 through three succesors to Genghis, that the _concept_ and fiction of a unitary state lingered into the 14th century. That the Genghisid lineage carried real political weight right down to the modern period. Those were huge accomplishments under the circumstances. The centrifugal force of geography was immense, that the centripetal force of Genghisid dynastic unity held it together as long as it did is at least a partial testament to Genghis’ genius. > [@](#): > > Why isn’t modern day China, Russia, and parts of the middle east all part of New Mongolia? Well, re:China remember that modern China was substantially assembled by the Manchu Qing who were culturally not that dissimilar to the Mongols. And one of the pillars of the early Qing state were the Khalka Mongols in modern inner and outer Mongolia, who were absorbed early. So in a sense the incorporation of part of the Mongol state was done in alliance with “China.” But more generally steppe pastoralists could only compete with settled societies for so long. Steppe cavalry remained at least somewhat effective militarily even into the 18th century. But the intertwining effects of a miserable resource base, sparse population and ever-lagging technological sophistication meant that rule from the steppes was ultimately doomed to failure with time. Pastoral societies were _always_ somewhat dependant on agrarian states under even the best of circumstances - the opposite was usually not the case and became less and less so over time. > [@](#): > > Was there such a gap between Ogedei and his rule and the rule of every other Mongol king that none were able to replicate even a fraction of the former’s success? Ogedei wasn’t brilliant. Tolui was a better general, Chagatai was more devoted to tradition, Jochi was a much better corpse ;). He was just a consensus builder and was handpicked for the succession for exactly that reason. Most of his accomlishments and successes were heavily reliant on the system he inherited from his father and that included Genghis promoting him in the first place. _Genghis_ was an unqualified genius. But genius is quite rare - his successors were often capable, but none of them were geniuses. They could not innovate and reform a system of world governance and military dominance like he could and likely never had the notion they needed to until it was too late. It was Genghis who de-tribalized the Mongols ( or perhaps more accurately wielded them into a single super-tribe ) and created a genuinely professional army. But with time it _re-tribalized_ as miltary commands settled down in one place and integrated into surrounding society. Genghis enforced draconian parade-ground discipline, it was Genghis who hand-picked one of history’s great officer corps. But over time these advantages eroded and as they did so did the internal strength of the state. And perhaps Genghis himself would have had increasing difficulties given another 100 years of life. It’s one thing to rule from the steppe on a conquering spree, quite another to rule from a semi-stagnant gilded throne in China. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-mongols-have-conquered-europe/599007.md?page=2)