# Could the people on 4chan who encouraged the Oregon shooter be charged with conspiracy to murder? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 3, 2015, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-people-on-4chan-who-encouraged-the-oregon-shooter-be-charged-with-conspiracy-to-murder/733427 "2015-10-03T22:18:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2015, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-people-on-4chan-who-encouraged-the-oregon-shooter-be-charged-with-conspiracy-to-murder/733427/41 "2015-10-05T12:26:24Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Agreed, but what about the 14 people who +1 an inciting post? +1 is the equivalent of saying, “Yeah!” Look at offline behavior. If someone’s at a bar, and talking in vague terms about going on a rampage, and others say, “You get 'em, buddy!” and still others say, “Yeah!” charges are almost certainly not going to be filed on anyone involved. There were a couple of people in that thread who were giving specific advice how to commit murder–“go to an all-girls school,” for example. Although that adivce was not followed, I wonder whether that could count as incitement. I doubt it, but would be interested in the opinions of someone more knowledgeable than myself. Again, analogizing to blowhards at a bar might be helpful. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2015, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-people-on-4chan-who-encouraged-the-oregon-shooter-be-charged-with-conspiracy-to-murder/733427/42 "2015-10-05T15:29:03Z")
Another element that might add to the analysis: > [@](#): > > [Physician “wanted” posters](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-abortion_violence#Physician_.22wanted.22_posters) > > In the late 1990s, an organization called American Coalition of Life Activists (ACLA) was accused of implicitly advocating violence by its publication on its “Nuremberg Files” website of wanted-style posters, which featured a photograph of a physician who performed abortions along with a monetary reward for any information that would lead to his “arrest, conviction, and revocation of license to practice medicine”.[23] The ACLA’s website described these physicians as war criminals[24] and accused them of committing “crimes against humanity”. The web site also published names, home addresses, telephone numbers, and other personal information regarding abortion providers—highlighting the names of those who had been wounded and striking out those of who had been killed. Dr. George Tiller’s name was included on this list along with many others. The site was accused of being a thinly-veiled hit list intended to incite violence; others claimed that it was protected under the First Amendment of the United States Constitution.[25] **In 2002, after a prolonged debate, the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that the “posters” constituted an illegal threat.** [26] Also ostensibly anonymous, and with care taken to put a veneer of innocence on them (a “but these were only about arresting and convicting him, not killing him!” kind of thing). I don’t think these were criminal charges, but need to double-check. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2015, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-people-on-4chan-who-encouraged-the-oregon-shooter-be-charged-with-conspiracy-to-murder/733427/43 "2015-10-05T15:46:31Z")
> [@Tithonus](#): > > Any attempt to enforce such a law on the internet would simply create a never-ending tsunami of vicious trolling. If you think 4Chan is bad now, just wait until the government starts telling them what they can and cannot say. Don’t be so sure [Pprune](http://www.pprune.org/index.php) has [this disclaimer](http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news-13/announcements.html): > [@pprune](#): > > NOTICE: You are responsible for the content you post. This is a public forum. Treat it as if you are speaking in a crowded room. Recent high-profile defamation events illustrate that there are ways in which third parties can force personal data, including contents of personal messages, to be released by bulletin board owners. Be careful - libelous/defamatory posts can and have landed members in legal hot water. PPRuNe will not guarantee your anonymity in such situations. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2015, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-people-on-4chan-who-encouraged-the-oregon-shooter-be-charged-with-conspiracy-to-murder/733427/44 "2015-10-05T15:56:22Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Who gives a fuck what the posters at 4Chan think? In the US, there’s a group that thinks they can avoid US law by inciting magic words like “joinder” and based on whether or not there is fringe on the flag. Guess what? You don’t get to make up your own rules… I do not acknowledge the treaty jurisdiction of this Admiralty Court in rem, as no UCC-105 Contract was duly signed under prima facie rights, thereby accepting for value the Sum of One Million Dollars ($1,000,000) in Lawful Gold or Silver Coin Only. robert,COLUMBIA, a foreign banking association registered in the Sheriff’s Court of the Domain of British West Florida, not required to register under Magna Carta rights of non-consent in and under GOD ALMIGHTY, agents of robert::columbia of the Family Col.Um.Bia in succession et al., Sovereign Immaculate CITIZEN of the Commonwealth Free Republic of Virginia (not Commonwealth of Virginia or State of Virginia), in legitime under guaranteed ancient Roman rights of lawful tenure. Under duress, year of our LORD 2015 (corrected calendar). ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2015, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-people-on-4chan-who-encouraged-the-oregon-shooter-be-charged-with-conspiracy-to-murder/733427/45 "2015-10-06T02:14:22Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I’m not at all convinced this is true. If they’re engaged in criminal incitement (for example), and if police start charging them and sending them to prison, it might no longer be all lulz to them. > > Just as child pornography is prosecuted online and offline I think other forms of speech that are criminal should be prosecuted online and offline. The ability of the criminals to hide their behavior on anonymous servers only changes the methods of investigation; it doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be investigated. And you just hinted at an example. 4chan has anti-child-porn rules. This hasn’t increased the amount of child porn. They understand that the site itself and their anonymity could become compromised if they do that. Sure, it does happen there, but to a much lesser extent than places with no such rules. I see no reason that incitements to violence couldn’t be raised to this level. If only moot were still there, I’d suspect he’d have the morals to do so. He did boot GamerGate off the site, after all. ---
**Author:** ![jcbt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/96bed5/32.png) [@jcbt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jcbt)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2015, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-people-on-4chan-who-encouraged-the-oregon-shooter-be-charged-with-conspiracy-to-murder/733427/46 "2015-10-06T23:31:39Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > This isn’t rocket science. Treat online posts the same as you’d treat offline communication; recognize that both are real-world behaviors; and the apparent thorniness is at least on this aspect resolved. But they are certainly not the same. As I type this response to your comment, keep in mind that I do not know you and you do not know me. You can not see my face and I can not see yours. I have no idea if your opinions are even serious, nor do you know that mine are either. We can not hear the tone in each others voice. We are basically pretending to be talking to each other. PRETENDING. In reality, we’re just typing our opinions onto a computer screen and then sending it to a web server. That’s not even close to the same as real-life communication. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2015, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-people-on-4chan-who-encouraged-the-oregon-shooter-be-charged-with-conspiracy-to-murder/733427/47 "2015-10-07T12:38:08Z")
> [@jcbt](#): > > But they are certainly not the same. As I type this response to your comment, keep in mind that I do not know you and you do not know me. You can not see my face and I can not see yours. I have no idea if your opinions are even serious, nor do you know that mine are either. We can not hear the tone in each others voice. We are basically pretending to be talking to each other. PRETENDING. In reality, we’re just typing our opinions onto a computer screen and then sending it to a web server. That’s not even close to the same as real-life communication. The We gatcha nomiable levkonia put renner sapially corndog. THAT is what “pretending to communicate” looks like. Except that now that I’ve explained it, not even that sentence counts as pretending to communicate: I communicated a counterexample to your claim. The idea of “pretending to communicate” is almost intellectually incoherent. Unless you’re shouting at your toaster, you’re not pretending to communicate. You’re taking ideas in your head, using your muscular and nervous system to transmute those ideas into energetic patterns external to your body, and hoping that some intended audience is using their nervous systems to perceive the energetic patterns and transmute them back into thoughts inside their own heads. Different media allow for more or less robust pattern communication. Face-to-face communication allows for body language. Written communication allows for revision of the message to be communicated. Music allows a robust transmission of aesthetic ideas. But it’s ludicrous to suggest that, because you don’t know whether I’m a man or a woman, you’re just pretending to communicate with me. You know that I’m a person who’s got certain views; you know that I’m an intended audience of your words. That suffices to turn what you’re doing into real communication. As for the “real world,” I’m afraid that until quantum engineers vastly improve the quality of their output, you’ll have no choice but to communicate entirely within the real world. You’ll find that my computer screen and yours, and the wires that connect them, and the wireless transmitter that communicate between them, all exist in the real world. None of them are in Narnia. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2015, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-people-on-4chan-who-encouraged-the-oregon-shooter-be-charged-with-conspiracy-to-murder/733427/48 "2015-10-07T14:27:44Z")
> [@jcbt](#): > > But they are certainly not the same. As I type this response to your comment, keep in mind that I do not know you and you do not know me. You can not see my face and I can not see yours. I have no idea if your opinions are even serious, nor do you know that mine are either. We can not hear the tone in each others voice. We are basically pretending to be talking to each other. PRETENDING. In reality, we’re just typing our opinions onto a computer screen and then sending it to a web server. That’s not even close to the same as real-life communication. I write you a letter offering payment for killing my wife. We’ve never met. You kill her, and write to me requesting payment. You didn’t know if I was serious. You could not discern the tone of my voice from my letter. We weren’t having a conversation or anything. Have I committed a crime? ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2015, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-people-on-4chan-who-encouraged-the-oregon-shooter-be-charged-with-conspiracy-to-murder/733427/49 "2015-10-07T14:55:36Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Conspiracy is probably the wrong charge in most of these case, but in Brandenburg vs. Ohio in 1969 the Supreme Court said: > > “Freedoms of speech and press do not permit a State to forbid advocacy of the use of force or of law violation except where such advocacy is directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action.” > > You cannot, with impunity, incite people to commit violence to others. Thank you, **Hector** , for bringing up [imminence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imminent_lawless_action). ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2015, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-people-on-4chan-who-encouraged-the-oregon-shooter-be-charged-with-conspiracy-to-murder/733427/50 "2015-10-07T17:18:04Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I write you a letter offering payment for killing my wife. We’ve never met. You kill her, and write to me requesting payment. You didn’t know if I was serious. You could not discern the tone of my voice from my letter. We weren’t having a conversation or anything. > > Have I committed a crime? With your letter we have a threat against a person in your immediate proximity. We also have your name and address as the stranger would have to know where to find her and we would likely have your fingerprints. On the internet we have none of this. Also, in your scenario, wouldnt the authorities want evidence of you actually making a payment? Edited to add: Ill say it again that it would be pretty hard to prove who actually was sending the messages. In the original 4chan script one poster jokes about the person doing the encouraging hiding behind 7 proxies and the FBI being unable to locate him. This is just one problem involved in proving who actually posted the offending content. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2015, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-people-on-4chan-who-encouraged-the-oregon-shooter-be-charged-with-conspiracy-to-murder/733427/51 "2015-10-07T22:16:23Z")
Whether something is difficult to prove has no bearing on whether it is a crime. Whether or not to prosecute such people is a practical and policy choice. Whether they are criminals is not. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2015, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-people-on-4chan-who-encouraged-the-oregon-shooter-be-charged-with-conspiracy-to-murder/733427/52 "2015-10-07T22:30:26Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Whether something is difficult to prove has no bearing on whether it is a crime. Whether or not to prosecute such people is a practical and policy choice. Whether they are criminals is not. I agree with the gist of your post but before we can prosecute ‘such people’ we have to identify them. Professional trolls are likely going to be well hidden. This is the point that some are missing here. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2015, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-people-on-4chan-who-encouraged-the-oregon-shooter-be-charged-with-conspiracy-to-murder/733427/53 "2015-10-07T23:04:10Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > I agree with the gist of your post but before we can prosecute ‘such people’ we have to identify them. Professional trolls are likely going to be well hidden. This is the point that some are missing here. So are professional child pornographers. That’s why we’ve given up trying to stop them. Well, I guess _you_ have, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2015, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-people-on-4chan-who-encouraged-the-oregon-shooter-be-charged-with-conspiracy-to-murder/733427/54 "2015-10-07T23:13:38Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > So are professional child pornographers. That’s why we’ve given up trying to stop them. Well, I guess _you_ have, anyway. The pedophiles tend to form social networks which makes it easier to infiltrate them and cstch them. Trolls are usually loners. Apples and oranges. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2015, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-people-on-4chan-who-encouraged-the-oregon-shooter-be-charged-with-conspiracy-to-murder/733427/55 "2015-10-08T00:12:11Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > The pedophiles tend to form social networks which makes it easier to infiltrate them and cstch them. Trolls are usually loners. Apples and oranges. And yet [trolls get caught, too.](http://www.smh.com.au/national/australian-is-jihadist-is-actually-an-jewish-american-troll-20150911-gjk852.html) Turns out on the Internet, the FBI DOES know whether you’re a dog. ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2015, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-people-on-4chan-who-encouraged-the-oregon-shooter-be-charged-with-conspiracy-to-murder/733427/56 "2015-10-08T02:35:00Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > And yet [trolls get caught, too.](http://www.smh.com.au/national/australian-is-jihadist-is-actually-an-jewish-american-troll-20150911-gjk852.html) Turns out on the Internet, the FBI DOES know whether you’re a dog. I’ve never advocated biting each other … just so we’re clear on that. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2015, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-people-on-4chan-who-encouraged-the-oregon-shooter-be-charged-with-conspiracy-to-murder/733427/57 "2015-10-08T11:02:28Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Whether something is difficult to prove has no bearing on whether it is a crime. Whether or not to prosecute such people is a practical and policy choice. Whether they are criminals is not. So “innocent until proven guilty” isn’t a thing? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2015, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-people-on-4chan-who-encouraged-the-oregon-shooter-be-charged-with-conspiracy-to-murder/733427/58 "2015-10-08T11:49:31Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > So “innocent until proven guilty” isn’t a thing? Prosecution is how you try to prove guilt. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2015, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-people-on-4chan-who-encouraged-the-oregon-shooter-be-charged-with-conspiracy-to-murder/733427/59 "2015-10-08T11:56:58Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Prosecution is how you try to prove guilt. Right. But until guilt is proven, the accused is innocent and therefore not a criminal, right? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2015, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-people-on-4chan-who-encouraged-the-oregon-shooter-be-charged-with-conspiracy-to-murder/733427/60 "2015-10-08T12:17:58Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Right. But until guilt is proven, the accused is innocent and therefore not a criminal, right? The word “criminal” doesn’t have a single, unambiguous meaning. Indeed, it’s not really used very often as a legal term without further description, because it’s not precise. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-people-on-4chan-who-encouraged-the-oregon-shooter-be-charged-with-conspiracy-to-murder/733427.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-people-on-4chan-who-encouraged-the-oregon-shooter-be-charged-with-conspiracy-to-murder/733427.md?page=4)