# Could the president, his wife, hit squads, a house member, a senator, and the AG take over America? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 5, 2010, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-president-his-wife-hit-squads-a-house-member-a-senator-and-the-ag-take-over-america/563079 "2010-12-05T23:39:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Pierrot\_Le\_Fou](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f475e1/32.png) [@Pierrot\_Le\_Fou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pierrot_Le_Fou)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2010, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-president-his-wife-hit-squads-a-house-member-a-senator-and-the-ag-take-over-america/563079/1 "2010-12-05T23:39:25Z")
And have it all be nice and legal? Here is the scenario: The president, using hit squads, kills all the members of Congress except two: a house member and a senator. These are now the only members of Congress. They each constitute a quorum. Both are loyal to the president. The attorney general blocks all federal investigations into the presidents actions. The president pardons the hit squads. The two remaining members of Congress each refuse to accept any further members. Congress impeaches and convicts all Supreme Court justices. Congress enacts legislation to limit the Supreme Court to one justice. The president, with advice and consent, appoints his wife as the only justice. For any state criminal trials against the president for killing all the members of Congress, the attorney general moves the trials to federal court, where the president’s wife rules that federal law preempts the state trials because the president has the legal power to kill whomever he wants. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2010, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-president-his-wife-hit-squads-a-house-member-a-senator-and-the-ag-take-over-america/563079/2 "2010-12-05T23:44:43Z")
If they have the military behind them, they can do almost anything. Of course, there’d also be a serious “insurgency” to deal with. But, how do the remaining members of Congress “refuse” to accept any new members? The states elect they’re own Senators and Representatives, and unless they just throw out the constitution, that tells us how many of each we get in the several states. I mean, if you’re just asking if someone could take over the US by force, the answer is yes. Could they do it w/o trashing the constitution and without the backing of the military? No. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2010, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-president-his-wife-hit-squads-a-house-member-a-senator-and-the-ag-take-over-america/563079/3 "2010-12-05T23:47:13Z")
Obviously practically this wouldn’t work, but I assume the OP is just asking if it would work out legally. I’d say no. Killing someone with a hit-squad is going to be a crime in whatever state the person was in, and I imagine the state AG would still press charges even if the federal gov’t declines. And IIRC, Presidential pardons are only good for federal offenses. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2010, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-president-his-wife-hit-squads-a-house-member-a-senator-and-the-ag-take-over-america/563079/4 "2010-12-05T23:49:00Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > But, how do the remaining members of Congress “refuse” to accept any new members? The states elect they’re own Senators and Representatives, and unless they just throw out the constitution, that tells us how many of each we get in the several states. Congress can refuse to seat new members. Presumably the one person Seante and the one person House would just refuse to seat any newly elected members. Of course, that only works until the next election. ---
**Author:** ![Pierrot\_Le\_Fou](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f475e1/32.png) [@Pierrot\_Le\_Fou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pierrot_Le_Fou)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2010, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-president-his-wife-hit-squads-a-house-member-a-senator-and-the-ag-take-over-america/563079/5 "2010-12-05T23:54:55Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > But, how do the remaining members of Congress “refuse” to accept any new members? The states elect they’re own Senators and Representatives, and unless they just throw out the constitution, that tells us how many of each we get in the several states. The members of each house get to determine who is qualified to be a member. The two remaining Congress members could refuse to accept anyone a state or governor attempts to appoint. ---
**Author:** ![Pierrot\_Le\_Fou](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f475e1/32.png) [@Pierrot\_Le\_Fou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pierrot_Le_Fou)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2010, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-president-his-wife-hit-squads-a-house-member-a-senator-and-the-ag-take-over-america/563079/6 "2010-12-05T23:56:25Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Obviously practically this wouldn’t work, but I assume the OP is just asking if it would work out legally. > > I’d say no. Killing someone with a hit-squad is going to be a crime in whatever state the person was in, and I imagine the state AG would still press charges even if the federal gov’t declines. And IIRC, Presidential pardons are only good for federal offenses. Thats why the attorney general moves the case to federal court. The president’s wife (the only Supreme Court justice) will rule this move legal and then rules the president’s actions legal. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2010, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-president-his-wife-hit-squads-a-house-member-a-senator-and-the-ag-take-over-america/563079/7 "2010-12-05T23:58:35Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Obviously practically this wouldn’t work, but I assume the OP is just asking if it would work out legally. > > I’d say no. Killing someone with a hit-squad is going to be a crime in whatever state the person was in, and I imagine the state AG would still press charges even if the federal gov’t declines. And IIRC, Presidential pardons are only good for federal offenses. What happens if the President’s hit squad only ever kills select people – say, a Representative and a Senator – in DC, possibly while Congress is in session there or during a State of the Union address or whatever? Can the big guy freely hand out pardons so long as he only ever has folks whack people in the nation’s capital? ---
**Author:** ![Pierrot\_Le\_Fou](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f475e1/32.png) [@Pierrot\_Le\_Fou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pierrot_Le_Fou)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-president-his-wife-hit-squads-a-house-member-a-senator-and-the-ag-take-over-america/563079/8 "2010-12-06T00:00:14Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Obviously practically this wouldn’t work, but I assume the OP is just asking if it would work out legally. Yeah, I am just looking for whether this would be legal. ---
**Author:** ![Pierrot\_Le\_Fou](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f475e1/32.png) [@Pierrot\_Le\_Fou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pierrot_Le_Fou)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-president-his-wife-hit-squads-a-house-member-a-senator-and-the-ag-take-over-america/563079/9 "2010-12-06T00:01:15Z")
> [@Pierrot\_Le\_Fou](#): > > The members of each house get to determine who is qualified to be a member. The two remaining Congress members could refuse to accept anyone a state or governor attempts to appoint. The Supreme Court will back up the two members’ interpretation. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-president-his-wife-hit-squads-a-house-member-a-senator-and-the-ag-take-over-america/563079/10 "2010-12-06T00:03:36Z")
A state could say, “[President’s wife] has made her decision, now let her enforce it!” and arrest the President for the murders. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-president-his-wife-hit-squads-a-house-member-a-senator-and-the-ag-take-over-america/563079/11 "2010-12-06T00:05:02Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > What happens if the President’s hit squad only ever kills select people – say, a Representative and a Senator – in DC, possibly while Congress is in session there or during a State of the Union address or whatever? Can the big guy freely hand out pardons so long as he only ever has folks whack people in the nation’s capital? I think that a state, say Virginia, could allege that the conspiracy was put in motion while the President was within its borders, or one of the guns was brought in from another state, or some minor element that puts a nexus to the crime in that state. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-president-his-wife-hit-squads-a-house-member-a-senator-and-the-ag-take-over-america/563079/12 "2010-12-06T00:05:05Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > A state could say, “[President’s wife] has made her decision, now let her enforce it!” and arrest the President for the murders. The question isn’t, “Will this work?” The question is, “Does this fall within the letter of the law?” ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-president-his-wife-hit-squads-a-house-member-a-senator-and-the-ag-take-over-america/563079/13 "2010-12-06T00:05:27Z")
Presumably when it became clear what was going on, Congress would vacate the capital and convene elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-president-his-wife-hit-squads-a-house-member-a-senator-and-the-ag-take-over-america/563079/14 "2010-12-06T00:07:34Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > The question isn’t, “Will this work?” The question is, “Does this fall within the letter of the law?” Well, since we are talking about mass murder on one hand, we can surely massage the law on the other. The state could assert power under the VA and KY Resolutions of 1798 and claim that their nullification of SCOTUS (Mrs. P) is lawful. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-president-his-wife-hit-squads-a-house-member-a-senator-and-the-ag-take-over-america/563079/15 "2010-12-06T00:16:04Z")
> **[Answers - The Most Trusted Place for Answering Life's Questions](https://www.answers.com/redirectSearch?query=quorum)** > > Answers is the place to go to get the answers you need and to ask the questions you want > [@](#): > > Dictionary of Cultural Literacy: Politics: quorum > Top Home \> Library \> History, Politics & Society \> Politics(kwawr-uhm) > > The minimum number of members of a committee or legislative body who must be present before business can officially or legally be conducted. In the United States Congress, for example, either house must have a majority (218 in the House of Representatives, 51 in the Senate) to have a quorum. So. Not as stated. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-president-his-wife-hit-squads-a-house-member-a-senator-and-the-ag-take-over-america/563079/16 "2010-12-06T00:20:10Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Obviously practically this wouldn’t work, but I assume the OP is just asking if it would work out legally. > > I’d say no. Killing someone with a hit-squad is going to be a crime in whatever state the person was in, and I imagine the state AG would still press charges even if the federal gov’t declines. And IIRC, Presidential pardons are only good for federal offenses. What if all the killing takes place in DC? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-president-his-wife-hit-squads-a-house-member-a-senator-and-the-ag-take-over-america/563079/17 "2010-12-06T00:20:45Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > [Answers - The Most Trusted Place for Answering Life's Questions](http://www.answers.com/topic/quorum) > > So. Not as stated. Disagree. The 218 and 51 are assuming that there are a full complement of Representatives and Senators. If there are only 1 in each body, then they would constitute a quorum. Perhaps the “equal suffrage in the Senate” part of the constitution would come into play but the unrepresented 49 states. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-president-his-wife-hit-squads-a-house-member-a-senator-and-the-ag-take-over-america/563079/18 "2010-12-06T00:24:52Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Perhaps the “equal suffrage in the Senate” part of the constitution would come into play but the unrepresented 49 states. Maybe, though the Congress still votes even when some states are short a Senator or House member. The senate still passed legislation even when Minnesota was down a senator while waiting for Al Franken to get his election results certified. ---
**Author:** ![Pierrot\_Le\_Fou](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f475e1/32.png) [@Pierrot\_Le\_Fou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pierrot_Le_Fou)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-president-his-wife-hit-squads-a-house-member-a-senator-and-the-ag-take-over-america/563079/19 "2010-12-06T00:41:27Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Disagree. The 218 and 51 are assuming that there are a full complement of Representatives and Senators. If there are only 1 in each body, then they would constitute a quorum. > > Perhaps the “equal suffrage in the Senate” part of the constitution would come into play but the unrepresented 49 states. And the Supreme Court will support anything the two say. Of course the problem will be whether that Court is itself legal. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2010, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-president-his-wife-hit-squads-a-house-member-a-senator-and-the-ag-take-over-america/563079/20 "2010-12-06T01:00:26Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Disagree. The 218 and 51 are assuming that there are a full complement of Representatives and Senators. If there are only 1 in each body, then they would constitute a quorum. No. > [@](#): > > Perhaps the “equal suffrage in the Senate” part of the constitution would come into play but the unrepresented 49 states. No. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-president-his-wife-hit-squads-a-house-member-a-senator-and-the-ag-take-over-america/563079.md?page=2)