# Could the Red Baron have been made more deadly if he had an assault rifle? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 2, 2022, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-red-baron-have-been-made-more-deadly-if-he-had-an-assault-rifle/958784 "2022-02-02T10:14:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Asuka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@Asuka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asuka)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2022, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-red-baron-have-been-made-more-deadly-if-he-had-an-assault-rifle/958784/1 "2022-02-02T10:14:41Z")
Hear me out. The Fokker Triplane he flew (along with most German aircraft of that era) was armed with twin LMG 08/15 machine guns in 8mm Mauser, each weighing 26 pounds along with however much the 1,000 rounds of belt fed 8mm Mauser weighed. Now, we can easily give him a better MG (though giving him twin MG42s might even be too fast for the propellers) but I’m curious if he would have done better with a lighter round he could have carried more of. But what if say the Red Baron had quad AK-47s with 50 round box mags mounted on his engine synched to fire through his propeller? He could carry a hell of a lot more rounds and also clear jams faster than with his LMG08. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2022, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-red-baron-have-been-made-more-deadly-if-he-had-an-assault-rifle/958784/2 "2022-02-02T10:33:27Z")
I’m sure the Red Baron would have been more deadly if he had air-to-air missiles. ---
**Author:** ![Asuka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@Asuka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asuka)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2022, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-red-baron-have-been-made-more-deadly-if-he-had-an-assault-rifle/958784/3 "2022-02-02T10:41:58Z")
I was under the impression both heat seeking and radar guided missiles have an incredibly hard time tracking something like a biplane made of cloth and wood. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2022, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-red-baron-have-been-made-more-deadly-if-he-had-an-assault-rifle/958784/4 "2022-02-02T10:53:14Z")
I’m sure the Baron would have some television-guided or electro-optical contrast seekers in reserve. Likely not lasers, though; those are probably too heavy for his aircraft. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2022, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-red-baron-have-been-made-more-deadly-if-he-had-an-assault-rifle/958784/5 "2022-02-02T11:01:53Z")
> [@Asuka](#): > > I was under the impression both heat seeking and radar guided missiles have an incredibly hard time tracking something like a biplane made of cloth and wood. [Heat-seeking](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infrared_homing) missiles might work. The engines were hot.   The answer in general to any question of the type    “Would [historical person] have been more effective with [modern technology]?” is yes. But that technology wasn’t available at the time, so what point are you making? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2022, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-red-baron-have-been-made-more-deadly-if-he-had-an-assault-rifle/958784/6 "2022-02-02T11:02:08Z")
> [@Asuka](#): > > both heat seeking and radar guided missiles have an incredibly hard time tracking something like a biplane made of cloth and wood. That’s why the Luftwaffe went with photon torpedoes. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2022, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-red-baron-have-been-made-more-deadly-if-he-had-an-assault-rifle/958784/7 "2022-02-02T11:17:39Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > > [@Asuka](#): > > > > both heat seeking and radar guided missiles have an incredibly hard time tracking something like a biplane made of cloth and wood. > > That’s why the Luftwaffe went with photon torpedoes. - What if Snoopy knew the Picard Maneuver? ---
**Author:** ![Asuka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@Asuka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asuka)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2022, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-red-baron-have-been-made-more-deadly-if-he-had-an-assault-rifle/958784/8 "2022-02-02T11:21:49Z")
To be absolutely fair this came from a shower thought I had in my head that whenever theres a tragedy caused by a single person (IE Single man runs over 20 people in a car) someone will almost invariably comment “Now just imagine how much worse it would have been if that man had an assault rifle!” And my mind instantly went to what would happen if we gave histories most successful killers assault rifles. ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2022, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-red-baron-have-been-made-more-deadly-if-he-had-an-assault-rifle/958784/9 "2022-02-02T11:42:16Z")
> [@Asuka](#): > > The Fokker Triplane he flew (along with most German aircraft of that era) was armed with twin LMG 08/15 machine guns in 8mm Mauser, each weighing 26 pounds along with however much the 1,000 rounds of belt fed 8mm Mauser weighed. Those were the 1910s style AK-47s. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2022, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-red-baron-have-been-made-more-deadly-if-he-had-an-assault-rifle/958784/10 "2022-02-02T11:51:25Z")
> [@Schnitte](#): > > Those were the 1910s style AK-47s. He should’ve gone with 1920s-style death rays. ---
**Author:** ![Capn\_Carl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/838e76/32.png) [@Capn\_Carl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capn_Carl)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2022, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-red-baron-have-been-made-more-deadly-if-he-had-an-assault-rifle/958784/11 "2022-02-02T12:01:54Z")
I don’t know the specifics, but if there’s a modern gun/ammo combination with higher velocity (for a flatter trajectory) than the old guns, I’d favor that one. The potential targets are flimsy wood and fabric airplanes with a squishy human inside, so a heavy round isn’t needed. What about a lighter/faster round, like 5.56mm? Secondary consideration is weight. Lighter guns means higher climb rate, better turning, etc. More ammo can be useful, but not if the plane is likely to run low on fuel before it runs out of bullets. ---
**Author:** ![Capn\_Carl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/838e76/32.png) [@Capn\_Carl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capn_Carl)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2022, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-red-baron-have-been-made-more-deadly-if-he-had-an-assault-rifle/958784/12 "2022-02-02T12:04:31Z")
Another factor: if the modern gun uses gravity in any part of its operation, it’ll probably jam when subjected to firing during dogfights. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2022, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-red-baron-have-been-made-more-deadly-if-he-had-an-assault-rifle/958784/13 "2022-02-02T12:20:34Z")
An intermediate cartridge like the 7.62x39 used in the AK-47 doesn’t pack as much of a punch as a full size cartridge like the 8mm Mauser (7.92x57). If you are shooting at other biplanes, the lighter round is still going to go right through the wood and fabric parts of the plane, but the lighter round won’t be as effective if it hits the plane’s engine. The 7.62x39 is also going to have a much shorter effective range and will be more adversely affected by wind / air speed. Also, high capacity magazines tend to be less reliable and have many more feed problems than belt-fed machine guns. The AK47 isn’t designed for sustained fire. It is intended to be fired as an infantry rifle, in full automatic but in fairly short bursts. It completely lacks any sort of barrel cooling, though something could probably be rigged up for that. It’s designed to be simple, rugged, cheap to produce, and “good enough” for use by infantry grunts at a typical range of 100 to 300 yards. It’s not designed to be accurate at distances further than that. If your soldier can shoot accurately beyond 300 yards you don’t give him an AK, you give him an SVT-40 or later a Dragunov SVD. It should be pointed out that the SVT and the SVD both use the 7.62x54 rimmed cartridge, which is fairly similar to the 8mm Mauser you are trying to replace. If you want to be accurate at longer ranges, you need the larger and heavier round. Intermediate cartridges were used on planes in WWI, but as far as I am aware they were only used for balloon busting and often fired incendiary ammunition. ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2022, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-red-baron-have-been-made-more-deadly-if-he-had-an-assault-rifle/958784/14 "2022-02-02T12:45:00Z")
If we are going to give him a modern weapon the mini M134 Gatling gun would be more appropriate and effective. Introduced in 1952 it’s lightweight and designed for use on small helicopters. Let her rip! > **[M134 GAU-17 Gatling Gun](https://www.military.com/equipment/m134-gau-17-gatling-gun)** > > Mission: Fire Suppression ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2022, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-red-baron-have-been-made-more-deadly-if-he-had-an-assault-rifle/958784/15 "2022-02-02T12:53:29Z")
You need electrical power, either from the (relatively) dinky engine or from batteries. Room for all that ammo. The extra weight involved. The Fokker weighs about 900 lbs, the gun is about 85 (or 41for the lightweight model) ETA:recoil. ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2022, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-red-baron-have-been-made-more-deadly-if-he-had-an-assault-rifle/958784/16 "2022-02-02T12:58:16Z")
Recoil? Jesse Ventura could use one as a hand weapon. I actually worked at a place that made gun mounts for the Navy gun testing facility at Alameda when the movie came out and asked my boss who was well versed in all type of military weapons if that was even possible. He told me that yes, a man like Jesse or Arnold probably could fire the weapon like that. But that luging the thing threw a jungle along with the ammo was pretty far fetched. And yes, where did he get the power to operate it? > **[Predator (1987)](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0093773/mediaviewer/rm3420266240/)** > > Jesse Ventura in Predator (1987) ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2022, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-red-baron-have-been-made-more-deadly-if-he-had-an-assault-rifle/958784/17 "2022-02-02T15:33:09Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > The answer in general to any question of the type > > “Would [historical person] have been more effective with [modern technology]?” > > is yes. What if Spartacus had a Piper Cub? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2022, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-red-baron-have-been-made-more-deadly-if-he-had-an-assault-rifle/958784/18 "2022-02-02T15:47:39Z")
> [@Si\_Amigo](#): > > Recoil? Jesse Ventura could use one as a hand weapon. > > I actually worked at a place that made gun mounts for the Navy gun testing facility at Alameda when the movie came out and asked my boss who was well versed in all type of military weapons if that was even possible. **He told me that yes, a man like Jesse or Arnold probably could fire the weapon like that.** But that luging the thing threw a jungle along with the ammo was pretty far fetched. And yes, where did he get the power to operate it? - > > [Predator (1987)](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0093773/mediaviewer/rm3420266240/) No way. From [IMFDB](http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Predator_(1987)#GE_M134_Minigun_.28Handheld.29) > The weapon was powered by an electric cable hidden off camera and fired blank rounds to ease the recoil force; in addition, the rate of fire is substantially decreased from the normal 6,000 RPM to 1,250 RPM. There are several reasons for this; to ease recoil, save on ammunition, and because director John McTiernan wanted the barrels to be visibly turning rather than a blur. Ventura still spoke of the fearsome recoil, saying that “you just had to grit your teeth and hold on” and that it was “like firing a chainsaw.” There’s no way he could hold on firing full power 7.62mm rounds. 6,000 rounds would weigh appx. 335 lbs. Plus batteries. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2022, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-red-baron-have-been-made-more-deadly-if-he-had-an-assault-rifle/958784/19 "2022-02-02T16:14:37Z")
I suspect the Red Baron’s success was only 5% shooting and 95% flying (aiming). The guns weren’t the problem; the platform was. “Stopping power” was kind of meaningless for someone like Richthofen and other successful aces. They quickly learned that the surest way to shoot down a plane was to aim at the melon sized target in the cockpit. Any old bullet would do the trick. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2022, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-red-baron-have-been-made-more-deadly-if-he-had-an-assault-rifle/958784/20 "2022-02-02T20:14:42Z")
I’m curious if ammo was a limiting factor in their engagements, or were they more likely to run low on fuel, or time, or targets? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-red-baron-have-been-made-more-deadly-if-he-had-an-assault-rifle/958784.md?page=2)