# Could the Red Baron have been made more deadly if he had an assault rifle? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 2, 2022, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-red-baron-have-been-made-more-deadly-if-he-had-an-assault-rifle/958784 "2022-02-02T10:14:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2022, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-red-baron-have-been-made-more-deadly-if-he-had-an-assault-rifle/958784/21 "2022-02-02T20:18:44Z")
The dude already had a light machine gun. What the hell does he need an assault rifle for? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2022, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-red-baron-have-been-made-more-deadly-if-he-had-an-assault-rifle/958784/22 "2022-02-02T20:29:23Z")
> [@Asuka](#): > > Now, we can easily give him a better MG (though giving him twin MG42s might even be too fast for the propellers) but I’m curious if he would have done better with a lighter round he could have carried more of. But what if say the Red Baron had quad AK-47s with 50 round box mags mounted on his engine synched to fire through his propeller? He could carry a hell of a lot more rounds and also clear jams faster than with his LMG08. No, this makes his plane worse. An AK-47, or any other assault rifle, is not an especially powerful weapon, and granting each one 50 rounds means that Richtofen’s aircraft is carrying LESS ammo; if it has 4 AK-47s it can fire four rounds per cycle, but you’re blowing off your rounds in five seconds at the AK-47’s rate of fire. The AK-47 also has inferior muzzle velocity and the bullets are about **half** the weight of the 7.92 Mauser ammo German planes actually carried for their MG 08s, so it’s really no advantage at all in the destructive power delivered, and would make aiming harder. Even if you figure out a way to feed way, way more bullets into each rifle the inferior ballistics will probably just be frustrating. Bear in mind “More, smaller guns” is something tried elsewhere are which rarely ended up being an ideal solution. The RAF’s Spitfire and Hurricane fighters started with an armament of eight .303 guns, which was a lot of guns but the smallest weapons any major fighter mounted I am aware of… and they phased that arrangement out, with later models going to a mix of cannons and guns, or eventually (especially with later planes like Tempest) just four cannons. Four 20mm cannons offered far less ammo and rate of fire but was a clearly superior solution. The assault rifle is a useful weapon because it is carried by a human, and weight and ease of use is absolutely critical in that situation. There’s a reason armies prefer to mount larger, often slower-firing weapons on vehicles, rather than a mass of M-16s. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2022, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-red-baron-have-been-made-more-deadly-if-he-had-an-assault-rifle/958784/23 "2022-02-02T20:54:47Z")
Four AK-47? How about [88 PPSh-41 sub-machine guns?](https://www.warhistoryonline.com/featured/innovative-flawed-fire-hedgehog.html) ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2022, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-red-baron-have-been-made-more-deadly-if-he-had-an-assault-rifle/958784/24 "2022-02-03T06:42:19Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Bear in mind “More, smaller guns” is something tried elsewhere are which rarely ended up being an ideal solution. The RAF’s Spitfire and Hurricane fighters started with an armament of eight .303 guns, which was a lot of guns but the smallest weapons any major fighter mounted I am aware of… and they phased that arrangement out, with later models going to a mix of cannons and guns, or eventually (especially with later planes like Tempest) just four cannons. Four 20mm cannons offered far less ammo and rate of fire but was a clearly superior solution. Wrong war. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2022, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-red-baron-have-been-made-more-deadly-if-he-had-an-assault-rifle/958784/25 "2022-02-03T07:18:13Z")
This is the greatest thread ever! Every post a fuckin gem. Except this one. Damn you, Lothar! ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2022, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-red-baron-have-been-made-more-deadly-if-he-had-an-assault-rifle/958784/26 "2022-02-03T08:16:32Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > The answer in general to any question of the type > > “Would [historical person] have been more effective with [modern technology]?” > > is yes. What if Samson had a modern-day assault rifle when he tangled with the Philistines? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2022, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-red-baron-have-been-made-more-deadly-if-he-had-an-assault-rifle/958784/27 "2022-02-03T14:29:35Z")
And here, I was picturing his plane’s weapon loadout being the same, but him carrying an unmodified AK47 with him in the (open) cockpit. So he could, for instance, fly side-by-side with a Sopwith Camel, pick up the rifle, and manually aim it at the beagle flying the other plane. IIRC, the first weapons on airplanes were in fact the pilots’ sidearms, used in much this way. And the pilot had to just be careful to not intersect their line of fire with their own propellers. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2022, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-red-baron-have-been-made-more-deadly-if-he-had-an-assault-rifle/958784/28 "2022-02-03T14:44:52Z")
Just for the heck of it. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/ysB-SH19WRQ/maxresdefault.jpg "Bullets vs Propeller in Slow Motion - The Slow Mo Guys") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysB-SH19WRQ) ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2022, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-red-baron-have-been-made-more-deadly-if-he-had-an-assault-rifle/958784/29 "2022-02-03T14:59:12Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > IIRC, the first weapons on airplanes were in fact the pilots’ sidearms, used in much this way. And the pilot had to just be careful to not intersect their line of fire with their own propellers. [The first weapon used in air-to-air combat: your own freaking airplane!](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerial_ramming) ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2022, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-red-baron-have-been-made-more-deadly-if-he-had-an-assault-rifle/958784/30 "2022-02-03T15:13:31Z")
I think early pilots also threw bricks and chains at each other (hoping to damage the propeller or wings, more than the pilot). ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2022, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-red-baron-have-been-made-more-deadly-if-he-had-an-assault-rifle/958784/31 "2022-02-03T15:51:57Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > So he could, for instance, fly side-by-side with a Sopwith Camel, pick up the rifle, and manually aim it at the beagle flying the other plane. Assuming the beagle was a complete moron and let an enemy just pull up beside him. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2022, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-red-baron-have-been-made-more-deadly-if-he-had-an-assault-rifle/958784/32 "2022-02-03T16:06:17Z")
Well, true, but being able to aim in any direction one chooses would surely be an advantage over only being able to aim in the direction one’s vehicle is directly pointing. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2022, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-red-baron-have-been-made-more-deadly-if-he-had-an-assault-rifle/958784/33 "2022-02-03T16:09:52Z")
The Baron had a significant number of victories that didn’t kill anyone - so he must have had some success in damaging planes instead of pilots ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2022, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-red-baron-have-been-made-more-deadly-if-he-had-an-assault-rifle/958784/34 "2022-02-03T16:10:32Z")
But you still have to fly the plane to “aim”, even if you are are firing broadsides. Even a dim beagle is going to be able to easily out maneuver a pilot trying to hit him from an unpiloted plane. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2022, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-red-baron-have-been-made-more-deadly-if-he-had-an-assault-rifle/958784/35 "2022-02-03T16:17:10Z")
“I never get into an aircraft for fun,” Manfred von Richthofen once wrote. “ **I aim first for the head of the pilot** , or rather at the head of the observer, if there is one.” [Ace of Aces: How the Red Baron Became WWI’s Most Legendary Fighter Pilot - HISTORY](https://www.history.com/news/ace-of-aces-how-the-red-baron-became-wwis-most-legendary-fighter-pilot#:~:text=%E2%80%9CI%20never%20get%20into%20an,aviator%20followed%20with%20ruthless%20precision). ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2022, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-red-baron-have-been-made-more-deadly-if-he-had-an-assault-rifle/958784/36 "2022-02-03T16:52:38Z")
I stand corrected. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2022, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-red-baron-have-been-made-more-deadly-if-he-had-an-assault-rifle/958784/37 "2022-02-03T17:18:38Z")
> [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#): > > Wrong war. I am aware of the difference. I was talking generally about aircraft armament. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2022, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-red-baron-have-been-made-more-deadly-if-he-had-an-assault-rifle/958784/38 "2022-02-03T17:20:55Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Well, true, but being able to aim in any direction one chooses would surely be an advantage over only being able to aim in the direction one’s vehicle is directly pointing. The fact that they stopped doing this and went to forward-firing guns would suggest it’s not worth the bother. Of course larger planes had gunners, but such guns were usually on mounts and used by people not flying the plane - and even then they aren’t as effective as fighters with fixed weapons. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2022, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-red-baron-have-been-made-more-deadly-if-he-had-an-assault-rifle/958784/39 "2022-02-03T17:30:55Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > The RAF’s Spitfire and Hurricane fighters started with an armament of eight .303 guns, which was a lot of guns but the smallest weapons any major fighter mounted I am aware of… and they phased that arrangement out, with later models going to a mix of cannons and guns, or eventually (especially with later planes like Tempest) just four cannons. One Version of the Hurricane had 12 .303 guns. I had heard a story, not confirmed, that a Hs 129 pilot thought it was hailing but it was rather a Hurricane with the 12 .303 shooting at him (and bouncing off his armor) ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2022, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-red-baron-have-been-made-more-deadly-if-he-had-an-assault-rifle/958784/40 "2022-02-03T17:36:46Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > One Version of the Hurricane had 12 .303 guns The Typhoon was originally going to do this as well. I don’t think that version was ever used operationally but some were definitely built that way. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-red-baron-have-been-made-more-deadly-if-he-had-an-assault-rifle/958784.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-red-baron-have-been-made-more-deadly-if-he-had-an-assault-rifle/958784.md?page=3)