# Could the Red Baron have been made more deadly if he had an assault rifle? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 2, 2022, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-red-baron-have-been-made-more-deadly-if-he-had-an-assault-rifle/958784 "2022-02-02T10:14:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2022, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-red-baron-have-been-made-more-deadly-if-he-had-an-assault-rifle/958784/41 "2022-02-03T17:52:05Z")
Not in the Great War, and generally not in dogfights. Fighter pilots found it better to aim the whole plane. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2022, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-red-baron-have-been-made-more-deadly-if-he-had-an-assault-rifle/958784/42 "2022-02-03T17:55:33Z")
Interesting. However, it was found that 20mm guns (in WW2) were best, the 37 mm gun on the P39 was considered almost useful in air to air combat, although the Ruskies liked it for ground attack. > [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > Four AK-47? How about [88 PPSh-41 sub-machine guns?](https://www.warhistoryonline.com/featured/innovative-flawed-fire-hedgehog.html) Didn’t the Americans try this with Thompsons? ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2022, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-red-baron-have-been-made-more-deadly-if-he-had-an-assault-rifle/958784/43 "2022-02-03T18:57:17Z")
[The B-25G](https://nationalinterest.org/sites/default/files/styles/hero-960w/public/main_images/dggddf.jpg?itok=Ui4_SxQi) replaced the bombardier’s glasshouse with a nest of 50-caliber guns, then cannons, to fly around and shred Japanese shipping. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2022, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-red-baron-have-been-made-more-deadly-if-he-had-an-assault-rifle/958784/44 "2022-02-03T18:57:53Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Interesting. However, it was found that 20mm guns (in WW2) were best, the 37 mm gun on the P39 was considered almost useful in air to air combat, although the Ruskies liked it for ground attack. The P-39 was largely an air superiority fighter; in fact by some counts it shot down more Axis fighters than any other American-designed aircraft. The reason it was so useful to the Russians but the USAF didn’t like it is that it lacked a supercharger, rendering it useless for high altitude operations. Air combat on the Eastern Front tended to be fought at lower altitudes, I believe largely because there wasn’t the strategic bombing campaign the Western front had, so the P-39 was fine for that. ---
**Author:** ![Joeu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/joeu/32/2911_2.png) [@Joeu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joeu)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2022, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-red-baron-have-been-made-more-deadly-if-he-had-an-assault-rifle/958784/45 "2022-02-03T20:17:43Z")
This question reminded me so much of Harry Turtledove’s _Guns of the South_ > **[The Guns of the South](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Guns_of_the_South)** > > The Guns of the South is an alternate history novel set during the American Civil War by Harry Turtledove. It was released in the United States on September 22, 1992. > The story deals with a group of time-traveling white supremacist members of the Afrikaner Weerstandsbeweging (AWB) from an imagined 21st-century South Africa, who supply Robert E. Lee's Army of Northern Virginia with AK-47s and other advanced technology, medicine and intelligence. Their intervention results in a Confederate victory... It’s been quite a long time since I read it, but if you’re interested in this kind of “what-if?” you might find it fascinating. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2022, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-red-baron-have-been-made-more-deadly-if-he-had-an-assault-rifle/958784/46 "2022-02-03T20:54:32Z")
> [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#): > > Even a dim beagle is going to be able to easily out maneuver a pilot trying to hit him from an unpiloted plane. However, flying doghouses were never all that maneuverable, so they weren’t the optimal aircraft for dogs to fly in their dogfights. ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2022, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-red-baron-have-been-made-more-deadly-if-he-had-an-assault-rifle/958784/47 "2022-02-03T21:53:38Z")
> [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > [The first weapon used in air-to-air combat: your own freaking airplane!](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerial_ramming) Even before that, in 1913 two mercenary pilots in the Mexican civil war shot at each other with pistols, but neither were hit. Too hard to aim, maybe? Nope! [They were friends who missed on purpose too make a show of following orders](https://firstinaviation.wordpress.com/2017/04/18/dean-ivan-lamb-and-phil-rader-first-dogfight/). ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2022, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-red-baron-have-been-made-more-deadly-if-he-had-an-assault-rifle/958784/48 "2022-02-03T22:08:25Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > However, flying doghouses were never all that maneuverable, so they weren’t the optimal aircraft for dogs to fly in their dogfights. Heretic! Snoopy flew a Sopwith Camel! It only looked like a doghouse! ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2022, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-red-baron-have-been-made-more-deadly-if-he-had-an-assault-rifle/958784/49 "2022-02-04T01:41:28Z")
> [@Schnitte](#): > > 1910s style AK-47s Ah the good old days. ---
**Author:** ![GaryM](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garym/32/241_2.png) [@GaryM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaryM)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2022, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-red-baron-have-been-made-more-deadly-if-he-had-an-assault-rifle/958784/50 "2022-02-04T14:55:17Z")
Read “[Hawk Among Sparrows](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2068914.Hawk_Among_the_Sparrows)” for a modern jet fighter vs. WW1 aircraft ---
**Author:** ![BrickBat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac91a4/32.png) [@BrickBat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrickBat)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2022, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-red-baron-have-been-made-more-deadly-if-he-had-an-assault-rifle/958784/51 "2022-02-04T19:57:37Z")
Yes it’s been a long standing myth that the P-39 was used by the VVS as a ground pounder but this seemed to stem from a translational issue; them referring to it in a “ground support” role. Ground support is in engaging enemy A/C to protect their own ground forces, not ground attack. In the low to mid altitude role it performed quite well: fast and maneuverable. It was not uncommon for the VVS pilots to have ( on the earlier D models ) to have the 4 wing mounted .30 caliber guns removed, so as to go into combat even lighter with just the two synchronized .50 caliber guns and the M4 cannon. The Alison V-1710 engine did in fact _have_ a supercharger, but rather a single speed/stage one, not a two speed one. But as combat in the eastern front took place at lower altitudes, this was not an issue. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-red-baron-have-been-made-more-deadly-if-he-had-an-assault-rifle/958784.md?page=2)