# Could the Titanic have been saved? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 13, 2004, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-titanic-have-been-saved/254907 "2004-07-13T15:50:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2004, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-titanic-have-been-saved/254907/81 "2004-07-20T15:02:59Z")
BobLibDem writes: \> They tried to reproduce this effect in Mythbusters and were unsuccesful. As far \> as I know, it’s an urban legend. They sunk a steamship cruiseliner to test it? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2004, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-titanic-have-been-saved/254907/82 "2004-07-20T15:11:27Z")
Obviously they couldn’t go to quite the same scale. Perhaps someone with a fresher memory than mine could elaborate. As I recall they did this both in the lab and by sinking a small vessel. But I do recall that the myth was busted. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2004, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-titanic-have-been-saved/254907/83 "2004-07-20T16:20:05Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > This is all from family tradition, so don’t take it as gospel, but as **N9IWP** said, the real issue was that the chambers created by the bulkheads weren’t topped off, so if the water breached the top of a bulkead, it would spill over the top into the next chamber. Nobody had ever thought of topping them off at the time. The number of bulkead chambers (five, I think) was the reason that the ship was reputed ‘unsinkable’. Unfortunately, the gash in the hull was long enough that there was a majority of bulkheads (three, I think) compromised with water, providing a great enough angle of sinking to pour water over the tops of the uncompromised bulkheads, as **bonzer** says. The Olympic was redesigned after the tragedy to seal the tops of the chambers, not that it helped. I’d like to meet Kate Winslett. Anyways, the first time I saw a History Channel thing on the sinking of the Titanic I saw this bit and the only thing I could think was, “What the fuck?” followed by disbelieving laughter. I understand the concept of how they were SUPPOSED to work, but…was there a good reason for not sealing those compartments all the way? At no point did someone look at one of those huge dividers and say, “Hey Bob, don’t you think it would be worth the extra .05% to the steel budgent to seal those things all the way?”. Was there a reason? Was there a _good_\* reason? -Joe ---
**Author:** ![APB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@APB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/APB)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2004, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-titanic-have-been-saved/254907/84 "2004-07-20T16:51:15Z")
> [@Equipoise](#): > > This one’s strange to me: > > [Lancastria - June 17th 1940 - 3,000 to 4,500 - British Troopship 16,243 tons. Sunk by German air attack off St Nazaire while engaged in troop evacuation. Site is a designated war grave. Some lists show up to 9,000 on board with up to 7,000 killed. Official British report on loss will not be released until the year 2040. So who or what was on board to warrant a 100 year closed file…(Anyone feel like giving me a call)](http://users.accesscomm.ca/shipwreck/index6.htm) > > (color theirs) What’s this crap about keeping records sealed for 100 years?? Predictably, it’s not that simple. This is what [this site](http://groups.msn.com/HirstFamilyWebsite/thefunneltheory.msnw) has to say on the subject. > [@](#): > > The official report into the sinking of the Lancastria has never been located. Undoubtedly it would have some conclusions about what actually took place, who was ultimately responsible for issuing the order to disregard international law on passenger limits and why a liner of Lancastria’s size, over 16,000 tons, sunk in just 20 minutes when her bulkhead doors were meant to be closed. It had been believed that this report was held under the Official Secrets Act until 2040. However the Admiralty, Cunard, the MoD and the Official [sic] Records [sic] Office deny this, yet none are able to locate what has happened to the official report into the worst naval disaster in British history! Moreover, even if this file was indeed closed until 2040, it would nevertheless be listed on the [National Archives catalogue](http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/default.asp). Plenty of other files which will almost certainly turn out to have been much more sensitive are listed there. That catalogue does list several files relating to the _Lancastria_ apart from the one already identified by **Walloon** ; like that one, those files are all already open and have been for several decades. Moreover, if the report did still exist and had indeed been closed until 2040, its status would be about to change. From next January, under the provisions of the [2000 Freedom of Information Act](http://www.legislation.hmso.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/20000036.htm), the old system of closing UK government files for fixed periods of time, the Thirty Year Rule, will be abolished. Although the Act gives the government extensive powers to withhold files on all the usual grounds (national security etc.), applications to consult sensitive files will now be considered on a case-by-case basis irrespective of the date of creation. ---
**Author:** ![liirogue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dbc845/32.png) [@liirogue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/liirogue)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2004, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-titanic-have-been-saved/254907/85 "2004-07-20T16:56:52Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > They tried to reproduce this effect in Mythbusters and were unsuccesful. As far as I know, it’s an urban legend. From what I have seen, **Mythbusters** is hardly scientific. Any conclusions they come to ought to be taken with a truckload of salt. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2004, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-titanic-have-been-saved/254907/86 "2004-07-20T18:11:35Z")
My reply did not come from **Mythbusters** , but from the observations of the _Titanic_’s survivors in the lifeboats surrounding the sinking, given later in testimony. There was very little of any suction vortex created by the final sinking of the ship, and passengers and debris from the decks remained floating on the surface of the water. Of 17 bodies found by the second recovery ship, the _Minia_, only one had water in the lungs indicating drowning; the rest died presumably of hypothermia. The climax of Melville’s _Moby-Dick_ (“And now, concentric circles seized the lone boat itself, and all its crew, and each floating oar, and every lance-pole, and spinning, animate and inanimate, all round and round in one vortex, carried the smallest chip of the Pequod out of sight”), and Poe’s short story “[A Descent Into the Maelstrom](http://eserver.org/books/poe/descent.html)” both use the vortex idea in fiction. ---
**Author:** ![liirogue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dbc845/32.png) [@liirogue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/liirogue)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2004, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-titanic-have-been-saved/254907/87 "2004-07-20T18:18:18Z")
I stand corrected, **Walloon**. Thank you for that info, I had no idea about the testimony from the survivors. ---
**Author:** ![Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Carnac\_the\_Magnificent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carnac_the_Magnificent)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2004, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-titanic-have-been-saved/254907/88 "2004-07-20T18:33:24Z")
> [@Wendell Wagner](#): > > BobLibDem writes: > > \> They tried to reproduce this effect in Mythbusters and were unsuccesful. As far > \> as I know, it’s an urban legend. > > They sunk a steamship cruiseliner to test it? Yep. Carnival Cruise Lines. 1999. The lucky survivors got an upgrade to the Lido deck on their next cruise. ---
**Author:** ![singersargent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/edb3f5/32.png) [@singersargent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/singersargent)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2004, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-titanic-have-been-saved/254907/89 "2004-07-20T19:20:56Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > If there has been a study to that effect then I bow to that. From “Sinking of the Titanic” DISCovering Science reference series, pub’d by Gale Group, 2003, "In 1993, a team of architects and engineers released a report in which they argued that the tragedy was caused not so much by the collision with the iceberg as by the structural weakness of the ship’s steel plates. Low-grade steel such as that used on the Titanic is subject to brittle fracture-- breaking rather than bending in cold temperatures. If a better grade of steel had been used, the ship might have withstood the collision or, at the very least, sunk more slowly, thus allowing more passengers to be saved. " Also: "It is likely that mishaps in wireless communication contributed to further unnecessary loss of life on the Titanic. On the Californian, a ship stopped for the night in ice fields not more than twenty miles away, the wireless operator had stopped working only fifteen or twenty minutes before the operator from the Titanic tried to get through with a distress call. At the time, wireless operators were employees of the Marconi company and did not follow around-the-clock shipboard watches. The next closest ship, which the Titanic did succeed in reaching, was the Carpathia, about fifty-eight miles away. The Carpathia picked up the first lifeboat at 4:10 a.m. If the Titanic had had lifeboats for everyone aboard, there might have been no loss of life. " And finally "Since there had been no boat drill, the crew and passengers did not know to which lifeboats they should go. Furthermore, the officers in charge of loading the boats were afraid that if they were fully loaded, either the boats would buckle as they were being lowered or the davits (cranes) holding the boats over the side would break (neither of which would have happened, as boats and davits had been tested). Thus they sent the boats down only partly loaded, with instructions to come alongside the cargo ports to pick up more passengers. However, the cargo ports were never opened, so many boats went away only partly filled. There was room enough in the boats for 1,178 persons; since about seven hundred and eleven were saved in boats, about four hundred and sixty-seven needlessly lost their lives in the loading mishap. " ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2004, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-titanic-have-been-saved/254907/90 "2004-07-20T20:24:23Z")
> [@singersargent](#): > > From “Sinking of the Titanic” DISCovering Science reference series, pub’d by Gale Group, 2003, > "In 1993, a team of architects and engineers released a report in which they argued that the tragedy was caused not so much by the collision with the iceberg as by the structural weakness of the ship’s steel plates. Low-grade steel such as that used on the Titanic is subject to brittle fracture-- breaking rather than bending in cold temperatures. If a better grade of steel had been used, the ship might have withstood the collision or, at the very least, sunk more slowly, thus allowing more passengers to be saved. " The fact that the back half of the ship broke off rather cleanly instead of buckling and tearing away sure indicates brittle steel. I’m not sure the term “low grade steel” is a proper term. Metallurgy has come a long way since 1911 and yet today there are some steels that are brittle at 34-35[sup]o[/sup]F. They are prefectly suitable for applications where temperatures are always relatively high. ---
**Author:** ![AtomicDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@AtomicDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AtomicDog)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2004, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-titanic-have-been-saved/254907/91 "2004-07-20T21:01:37Z")
> [@liirogue](#): > > From what I have seen, **Mythbusters** is hardly scientific. Any conclusions they come to ought to be taken with a truckload of salt. Care to elaborate? They seem to be pretty accurate to me with the myths that I’ve seen explored. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2004, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-titanic-have-been-saved/254907/92 "2004-07-21T06:09:36Z")
> [@singersargent](#): > > From “Sinking of the Titanic” DISCovering Science reference series, pub’d by Gale Group, 2003, > "In 1993, a team of architects and engineers released a report in which they argued that the tragedy was caused not so much by the collision with the iceberg as by the structural weakness of the ship’s steel plates. Low-grade steel such as that used on the Titanic is subject to brittle fracture-- breaking rather than bending in cold temperatures. If a better grade of steel had been used, the ship might have withstood the collision or, at the very least, sunk more slowly, thus allowing more passengers to be saved. " This doesn’t seem to me to be to the point. ---
**Author:** ![liirogue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dbc845/32.png) [@liirogue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/liirogue)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2004, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-titanic-have-been-saved/254907/93 "2004-07-21T18:14:38Z")
> [@AtomicDog](#): > > Care to elaborate? They seem to be pretty accurate to me with the myths that I’ve seen explored. Sometimes they do a pretty good job, other times I cringe. For instance, I recall reading a thread here where they built a mini suspension bridge… only the type of bridge they built wasn’t actually a suspension bridge. That nullified any data they might have obtained. (I am mentioning this thread because the person that wrote it seemed to know what he was talking about.) There are other examples, but I can’t recall them off the top of my head - it’s been a while since I watched the show. ---
**Author:** ![Sarcastro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e495f1/32.png) [@Sarcastro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarcastro)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2004, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-titanic-have-been-saved/254907/94 "2004-07-21T20:34:06Z")
> [@Walloon](#): > > As it turned out, there was virtually no vortex created by the final sinking. Though it seems to me that the purported concern about panicked and doomed swimmers swamping the lifeboats was a pretty legitimate one. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2004, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-titanic-have-been-saved/254907/95 "2004-07-22T01:23:24Z")
> [@Ale](#): > > Yeah, and didn´t he add that it was manned by a one-armed captain per chance? 😉 Vandervecken always messes up everything. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2004, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-titanic-have-been-saved/254907/96 "2004-07-22T01:50:19Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > The fact that the back half of the ship broke off rather cleanly instead of buckling and tearing away sure indicates brittle steel. > > I’m not sure the term “low grade steel” is a proper term. Metallurgy has come a long way since 1911 and yet today there are some steels that are brittle at 34-35[sup]o[/sup]F. They are prefectly suitable for applications where temperatures are always relatively high. IIRC, one of the articles on the analysis of the _Titanic_’s steel indicated that it had a high sulphur content and that the metallurgical processes of the day had no way of detecting this or being able to counteract it if it had been discovered./ Possibly one of the best things that could have improved the _Titanic_’s chances of survival was simply to have had a different captain. Since the captain on her maiden voyage, while an experienced seaman, had never had a serious disaster occur on any ship he had served on. If the captain had been one with first hand experience of a maritime disaster, things might have gone differently. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2004, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-titanic-have-been-saved/254907/97 "2004-07-22T05:04:01Z")
> [@Walloon](#): > > My reply did not come from **Mythbusters** , but from the observations of the _Titanic_’s survivors in the lifeboats surrounding the sinking, given later in testimony. There was very little of any suction vortex created by the final sinking of the ship, and passengers and debris from the decks remained floating on the surface of the water. Of 17 bodies found by the second recovery ship, the _Minia_, only one had water in the lungs indicating drowning; the rest died presumably of hypothermia. Legend has it that the chief baker on the ship rode the stern down all the way to the end-(being picked up by one of the collapsibles shortly thereafter), on the railing just as Rose and Jack did in the movie. He said it was like being on an elevator, and when the ship went under, he just let go and paddled off-without even getting his head wet. Swamped lifeboats-accounts of the sinking of the _Lusitania_ would confirm this-though the ship had enough lifeboats, not all could be launched safely-some were dropped into the water and shattered, landed on top of other ones, or capsized. Those that did get away were crammed full-one survivor who was a child at the time of the sinking said that there were hands grabbing onto the side of the boat and they kept having to push them off, because the boat was so full. Imagine living through something like that. _shudder_ ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2004, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-titanic-have-been-saved/254907/98 "2004-07-22T13:49:08Z")
Any truth to the story that Captain Smith had been pressured (to speed through the icefield at top speed, at night), by the owner of WHITE STAR Lines? This was implied in the movie…and Bruce Ismay (the owner/director) later made a cowardly escape in a lifeboat, with a woman’s shawl over his head. Did Ismay EVER give an interview after the sinking? Captain Smith went down with the ship…and he was a very experienced, cautious mariner. How in hell was such a ship allowed to go at top speed when no less than five ice warnings had been received by the radioman? :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2004, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-titanic-have-been-saved/254907/99 "2004-07-22T14:29:17Z")
> [@Ringo](#): > > **Eve** , I can’t help but think of this as an **Eve** thread. First respondent you were to a GQ thread, and, no offense meant, this is a choice bit from what I perceive as your chosen era. Well, it looks like my next book will be about **Vernon and Irene Castle** , who were the “very pineapple” (as Mrs. Maloprop would say) of the 1910–15 era. ---
**Author:** ![clayton\_e](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@clayton\_e](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clayton_e)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2004, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-titanic-have-been-saved/254907/100 "2004-07-22T15:30:49Z")
Sorry to go off topic, but I heard a while ago that some company was planning on making a copy of the Titanic (I’m assuming with a modern safety system and internal design) because, well… Titanic isn’t really all that big compared to the modern vacation ships of today. Was it a pipe dream like that floating city boat thing (or are people seriously considering that also?) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-titanic-have-been-saved/254907.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-titanic-have-been-saved/254907.md?page=6)