# Could the U.S. become a fascist state? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 25, 2010, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-u-s-become-a-fascist-state/547951 "2010-07-25T16:15:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2010, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-u-s-become-a-fascist-state/547951/21 "2010-07-25T22:10:09Z")
> [@Spoke](#): > > > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > > > Why would you think that fascism would come from the right? > > Because people on the right in the US are the ones who champion: > > 1. Nationalism Lots of political ideologies are nationalist. The Soviet Union was certainly very nationalist. > [@](#): > > 1. Militarism Switzerland and Israel are militarist, and not fascist. > [@](#): > > 1. Fear of outsiders Really? Which party is more supportive of free trade? Which one wants foreign sweatshops closed? Furthermore, protecting the border is not just a Republican demand. Support for more border protection runs about 75% in the U.S. Much of the opposition against illegal immigrants is coming from blue-collar workers and union leaders. > [@](#): > > 1. Racial scapegoating You mean like the NAACP? Louis Farrakhan? Jesse Jackson? Reverend Wright? The Black Panthers? A president who accused a white cop of ‘acting stupidly’ without knowing the facts? There’s plenty of racial scapegoating going on on both sides of the political fence. > [@](#): > > 1. Increased government surveillance via The Patriot Act Remind me again who’s in charge of that? Who was it again that expanded the use of Predators on American soil? Which administration has continued to support the Patriot Act, warantless wiretapping, rendition, Gitmo, and all the other horrors that are supposed to be unique to Republicans? ---
**Author:** ![IdahoMauleMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/71c47a/32.png) [@IdahoMauleMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IdahoMauleMan)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-u-s-become-a-fascist-state/547951/22 "2010-07-26T00:36:27Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Another characteristic of fascism is that there is usually a cult of personality at its center. Which presidential candidate fostered a cult of personality? > When fascism comes knocking, it won’t show up dressed in Nazi garb. It will show up dressed as the nice man who just wants to help you make sure you’re cared for. All you need to do is give up a little freedom. Very nice post. Another thing that you touch on, but perhaps should be stated overtly, is that in a number of past fascist regimes the leader rose to the top via semi-democratic means. That is, the people willingly voted for and supported the leader’s rise by willingly handing over liberty for security. And got neither. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-u-s-become-a-fascist-state/547951/23 "2010-07-26T01:01:31Z")
Tell me that bedtime story again, Grandpa, you know the one where funny little man with the toothbrush mustache who came to symbolize the words “right-wing tyrant” for the foreseeable future is a warning against electing left-wing candidates. I like that one, it’s so funny. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-u-s-become-a-fascist-state/547951/24 "2010-07-26T01:35:20Z")
Sure, fascism typically arises from democracy, but historically, it hasn’t been the nice man who wants to make sure you’re cared for. Historically, it’s been the guy who wants to make sure that those _other_ guys _aren’t_ cared for. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-u-s-become-a-fascist-state/547951/25 "2010-07-26T03:30:31Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > When fascism comes knocking, it won’t show up dressed in Nazi garb. It will show up dressed as the nice man who just wants to help you make sure you’re cared for. All you need to do is give up a little freedom. “When facism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.” – Sinclair Lewis ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-u-s-become-a-fascist-state/547951/26 "2010-07-26T03:32:53Z")
And it will use fear to keep you in line. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-u-s-become-a-fascist-state/547951/27 "2010-07-26T03:40:09Z")
> [@IdahoMauleMan](#): > > Another thing that you touch on, but perhaps should be stated overtly, is that in a number of past fascist regimes the leader rose to the top via semi-democratic means. That is, the people willingly voted for and supported the leader’s rise by willingly handing over liberty for security. And got neither. Mussolini and Hitler did not promise their peoples security; they already had that, pretty much. They promised their peoples **glory.** That was what made them so hard for non-Communist leftists of their time, such as H.G. Wells, to understand or take seriously. From ["Wells, Hitler, and the World State,](http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks03/0300011h.html#part15) by George Orwell (1941): > [@](#): > > What is the use of saying that we need federal world control of the air? The whole question is how we are to get it. What is the use of pointing out that a World State is desirable? What matters is that not one of the five great military powers would think of submitting to such a thing. All sensible men for decades past have been substantially in agreement with what Mr Wells says; but the sensible men have no power and, in too many cases, no disposition to sacrifice themselves. Hitler is a criminal lunatic, and Hitler has an army of millions of men, aeroplanes in thousands, tanks in tens of thousands. For his sake a great nation has been willing to overwork itself for six years and then to fight for two years more, whereas for the commonsense, essentially hedonistic world-view which Mr Wells puts forward, hardly a human creature is willing to shed a pint of blood. Before you can even talk of world reconstruction, or even of peace, you have got to eliminate Hitler, which means bringing into being a dynamic not necessarily the same as that of the Nazis, but probably quite as unacceptable to “enlightened” and hedonistic people. What has kept England on its feet during the past year? In part, no doubt, some vague idea about a better future, but chiefly the atavistic emotion of patriotism, the ingrained feeling of the English-speaking peoples that they are superior to foreigners. For the last twenty years the main object of English left-wing intellectuals has been to break this feeling down, and if they had succeeded, we might be watching the SS men patrolling the London streets at this moment. Similarly, why are the Russians fighting like tigers against the German invasion? In part, perhaps, for some half-remembered ideal of Utopian Socialism, but chiefly in defence of Holy Russia (the “sacred soil of the Fatherland”, etc etc), which Stalin has revived in an only slightly altered form. The energy that actually shapes the world springs from emotions–racial pride, leader-worship, religious belief, love of war–which liberal intellectuals mechanically write off as anachronisms, and which they have usually destroyed so completely in themselves as to have lost all power of action. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-u-s-become-a-fascist-state/547951/28 "2010-07-26T03:48:19Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > The center of gravity on the right at this moment trends towards libertarianism. No, the center of gravity – or at any rate the center of energy, as expressed in the Tea Parties and Town Halls – of the right at this moment trends towards paleoconservatism and social-religious conservatism – tendencies much more nationalistic and ethnocentric and much less rationalistic than libertarianism. ---
**Author:** ![IdahoMauleMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/71c47a/32.png) [@IdahoMauleMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IdahoMauleMan)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-u-s-become-a-fascist-state/547951/29 "2010-07-26T04:15:09Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Sure, fascism typically arises from democracy, but historically, it hasn’t been the nice man who wants to make sure you’re cared for. Historically, it’s been the guy who wants to make sure that those _other_ guys _aren’t_ cared for. It’s usually both at the same time, isn’t it? 1. A chicken in every pot, and a Volkswagen in every garage 2. It’s the fault of the Jews Compare that to 1. “Free” health care for all, government-subsidized mortgages and extended unemployment benefits forever 2. It’s the fault of greedy private-sector CEOs Either way, the leadership figure promises a bunch of free stuff to people who will elect him, and blames a smaller, potentially unpopular group for the troubles of the masses. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-u-s-become-a-fascist-state/547951/30 "2010-07-26T04:19:08Z")
> [@IdahoMauleMan](#): > > > [@Chronos](#): > > > > Sure, fascism typically arises from democracy, but historically, it hasn’t been the nice man who wants to make sure you’re cared for. Historically, it’s been the guy who wants to make sure that those _other_ guys _aren’t_ cared for. > > It’s usually both at the same time, isn’t it? > > 1. A chicken in every pot, and a Volkswagen in every garage > 2. It’s the fault of the Jews > > Compare that to > > 1. “Free” health care for all, government-subsidized mortgages and extended unemployment benefits forever > 2. It’s the fault of greedy private-sector CEOs > > Either way, the leadership figure promises a bunch of free stuff to people who will elect him, and blames a smaller, potentially unpopular group for the troubles of the masses. The difference is that it **wasn’t** the fault of the Jews. ---
**Author:** ![IdahoMauleMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/71c47a/32.png) [@IdahoMauleMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IdahoMauleMan)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-u-s-become-a-fascist-state/547951/31 "2010-07-26T04:37:19Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > > [@IdahoMauleMan](#): > > > > > [@Chronos](#): > > > > > > Sure, fascism typically arises from democracy, but historically, it hasn’t been the nice man who wants to make sure you’re cared for. Historically, it’s been the guy who wants to make sure that those _other_ guys _aren’t_ cared for. > > > > It’s usually both at the same time, isn’t it? > > > > 1. A chicken in every pot, and a Volkswagen in every garage > > 2. It’s the fault of the Jews > > > > Compare that to > > > > 1. “Free” health care for all, government-subsidized mortgages and extended unemployment benefits forever > > 2. It’s the fault of greedy private-sector CEOs > > > > Either way, the leadership figure promises a bunch of free stuff to people who will elect him, and blames a smaller, potentially unpopular group for the troubles of the masses. > > The difference is that it **wasn’t** the fault of the Jews. You see? It’s working. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-u-s-become-a-fascist-state/547951/32 "2010-07-26T05:31:22Z")
Psst, **Idaho** , the “chicken in every pot” thing was Hoover, not Hitler. I mean, I can see how you would get them mixed up, since they start and end with the same letters, but there are still some significant differences, too. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-u-s-become-a-fascist-state/547951/33 "2010-07-26T05:55:10Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Psst, **Idaho** , the “chicken in every pot” thing was Hoover, not Hitler. I mean, I can see how you would get them mixed up, since they start and end with the same letters, but there are still some significant differences, too. I thought it was [Henry IV.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_IV_of_France) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-u-s-become-a-fascist-state/547951/34 "2010-07-26T06:22:40Z")
From John J. Reilly’s [review](http://www.johnreilly.info/fah.htm) of _Fascism: A History,_ by Roger Eatwell: > [@](#): > > Fascism would not have been possible without Friedrich Nietzsche. There has been no lack of anti-theistic philosophers both before and after Nietzsche, but he is almost alone in honestly facing the consequences of living in a world in which everything is permitted. Most thinkers have sought to preserve some fragment of the intellectual structure that depended from the hypothesis of the Christian God, and so they appeal to reason or history or science. Nietzsche would have none of it. If the skies are really empty, then there are no imperatives. There is, however, life, which in the case of human beings expresses itself not just as biology but as the will. Now Nietzsche, unlike Schopenhauer and unlike many of his own followers, recognized the will is itself a composite entity. It is not a primary physical force, and it is not a god. It does, however, actually exist, and its exercise is all the meaning that life can ever have. > > The proposition that the meaning of life is the exercise of the will leads to two kinds of conclusions. The most obvious, and the most popular, is the cult of cruelty. Naturally, the street-fighters who normally figure in the public activities of successful fascist parties are rarely well-read in the literature of philosophical nihilism. Nevertheless, even the nihilist violence of the German SA and the Italian “squadristi” chimes with high theory. Fascism promotes ruthlessness for the same reason that it promotes conspiracy theories: for a fascist, nothing is going to happen unless some will makes it happen. One suspects this consideration is also a factor in the usual fascist suspicion of free markets. > > The other conclusion to which an ontology of the will leads is the transformation of politics into art. Whole societies become instruments for the expression of the will of elites, or often of a single great individual. In fascist theory, this is all that politics ever was, no matter what purportedly disinterested purposes the ruling elites of the past believed they served. The difference that Nietzsche made was that this reality could become conscious. > > Fascism is not quite coincident with the great man theory of history. Since human beings are social animals, the will is to some extent a social phenomenon. Thus, reality is an intersubjective construct, a fable that people make up amongst themselves. The construct is not entirely arbitrary. Most fascists have also posited a strong racial or biological element conditioning the way that leaders and their peoples behave. Still, even in highly racialized forms of fascism, the leader stands to the people as the will stands to the individual. Politics, then, is not an arbitrary art, but an art whereby the leader makes the unconscious will of the people explicit. > > \ > > So, are we really just back where we started at the beginning of the 20th century, waiting for some crisis that will delegitimize the existing establishments and start the ball rolling again? One way to look at the 20th century is as one long recoil from the process of globalization. It was only in the 1990s, for instance, that international capital flows again reached the levels relative to the economies of the major countries that they had reached before the First World War. Similarly, it is only recently that international trade in general became as important as it was around 1900. What happened thereafter was that the governments of the leading nations sought to gain unprecedented control of their countries’ destinies. Partly this was accomplished by war, partly it was accomplished through the creation of command economies. Stalinism was simply Lloyd George’s “War Socialism” made permanent, something that happened in greater or lesser degree throughout the West. In every case, the goal was to replace the power of capital with the power of the will, whether the will was that of an electorate or of a would-be Nietzschean superman. When, starting in the 1980s, the military and economic systems of command began to be relaxed, the world economic system began to look again something like the way it had looked before these measures were implemented. The process of globalization began again. So did the attempts to stop it. > > It would be wrong to say that all attempts to stop globalization of economics and communications and culture are fascist. Most resistance to universalism comes from a positive desire to preserve local identities and traditions. Such things may or may not be worth preserving. The balance between the local and the universal is not something that can be dictated categorically. Fascist nationalism, in contrast, was perhaps just an improvisation, made necessary by the fact that nations states were the largest units that fascist elites could hope to control. At a deeper level of fascism is the ideal of the universal empire, of the whole world subject to a single will. The goal is repeatedly deferred only because it is obviously so much harder to achieve. > > Fascist statecraft is by its nature manipulative, a game that elites play with deluded masses. The fascists in the ‘20s and ‘30s did not come to power by promising to create a society beyond good and evil. They did it by promising people things that really were good, such as safe streets and private property and a country with a culture they could recognize. The opponents to fascism too often fell into the trap of opposing these things simply because the fascists endorsed them. This is an important point for the world’s liberals (or progressives, or whatever they call themselves locally) to keep in mind. As for the conservatives, they must beware of the company they keep. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 8:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-u-s-become-a-fascist-state/547951/35 "2010-07-26T08:44:29Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > The fact is, the fascism of the future won’t be the fascism of the past. Any specific fascist regime has features unique to its time and place. > > Frankly, I think the dividing line between fascism and communism is somewhat arbitrary. I found much to agree with _and_ much to disagree with in **Sam Stone** ’s earlier post. Here I’ve quoted sentences I _do_ agree with, For example, weren’t Pinochet’s Chile (“fascism”) and Deng’s China (“communism”) quite similar? (A main difference being their relations with U.S.!) The biggest problem with Sam’s views is his treating mainstream Democratic Party and mainstream media as “leftist.” Instead this mainstream is centrist or even right-of-center; yet repeatedly in SDMB threads, a definition is assumed that those to the left of American median opinion are “leftists.” This misconception is fostered by right-wingers, and has the effect of continually moving the country to the right, as those who’d like to be “centrist” flee from the (supposedly leftist) main-stream media and Democratic Party. Whether the policies of true leftists would lead to fascism is completely irrelevant here. True leftists have so little political power in U.S.A. as to be completely irrelevant. The continuing increase of corporate power is the real fascist threat. The Democrat Party shares culpability for that, but the biggest problem is right-wing commentary. Although the right wing preaches anti-government “liberty and freedom,” the effect of that preaching is to enhance the power of private corporations, and that’s where the real fascist threat lies in America. ---
**Author:** ![IdahoMauleMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/71c47a/32.png) [@IdahoMauleMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IdahoMauleMan)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-u-s-become-a-fascist-state/547951/36 "2010-07-26T12:06:37Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Psst, **Idaho** , the “chicken in every pot” thing was Hoover, not Hitler. I mean, I can see how you would get them mixed up, since they start and end with the same letters, but there are still some significant differences, too. Good call. Let’s change it to a weisswurst at every Stamtisch, and call it a day. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-u-s-become-a-fascist-state/547951/37 "2010-07-26T12:50:38Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > > > When fascism comes knocking, it won’t show up dressed in Nazi garb. It will show up dressed as the nice man who just wants to help you make sure you’re cared for. All you need to do is give up a little freedom. > > “When facism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.” > > – Sinclair Lewis The quote has often been attributed to Lewis, and also to Huey Long. However, nobody has ever documented its actual source. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-u-s-become-a-fascist-state/547951/38 "2010-07-26T12:51:33Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > > [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > > > > [@John\_Mace](#): > > > > > > Do you have a cite for this? > > > > Something I noticed. Also, I believe it was pointed out by others here. > > I noticed or suspected the same thing around that time, and I am probably one of those who brought it up at the time. > > (re the “terror alert” color changey thingy) It’s not as if there isn’t plenty of evidence of fear mongering by the GOP. 9/11 was the theme song for their convention. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-u-s-become-a-fascist-state/547951/39 "2010-07-26T12:51:57Z")
Doubtful. The facist ideal is woefully obsolete for running a modern, technologically advanced nation with an educated populace. Straight up crackdowns are nostalgic relics, supplanted by what we (and many others) have now – a sorta of gelatinous goo that is extremely resistant to popular resistance and takes full advantage of information technology. I think the popular buzz word is squishy totalitarianism. Point is, it’s far too profitable for our betters to let some raving loon mess the system up. And he probably couldn’t, anyway, because he would just be absorbed. The only mechanisms to bring down the current system would be so severe (e.g. nuclear war, massive energy crisis, economic catastrophe) it would probably lead to the breakup of the United States into smaller regional enclaves or maybe even city states. > [@Spoke](#): > > Because people on the right in the US are the ones who champion: > > 1. Nationalism > 2. Militarism > 3. Fear of outsiders > 4. Racial scapegoating > 5. Increased government surveillance via The Patriot Act Dems have all these on lockdown. Well, 4 might be arguable, but 4/5 ain’t bad. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2010, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-u-s-become-a-fascist-state/547951/40 "2010-07-26T12:53:48Z")
If and when fascism comes to America, it will most likely come from the left, not the right. America is already well on the way to becoming a banana republic, thanks primarily to the economic and racial doctrines of the left. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-u-s-become-a-fascist-state/547951.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-u-s-become-a-fascist-state/547951.md?page=3)