# Could the US Constitution be legally abolished? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 6, 2012, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-us-constitution-be-legally-abolished/624303 "2012-06-06T19:17:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-us-constitution-be-legally-abolished/624303/1 "2012-06-06T19:17:14Z")
So it’s 2123 and Americans are finding it more and more difficult to reconcile the principles of the US Constitution with the bare realities of life when the zombie apocalypse is happening around them. At least in theory, could the US Constitution, in its entirety, be abolished peacefully through internal political processes? Specifically, no violent overthrow of the government is permitted, and the country may not be conquered by a foreign power. The change must be effected _using_ the law, not against it. For example, could a new Constitutional Amendment be passed that states, “From the effective date of this amendment, all sections of the Constitution other than this one are hereby repealed.”, followed by an Amendment or statute setting up a royal dynasty, completely banning civilian ownership of guns, permitting bills of attainder and ex post facto laws, disbanding the Supreme Court, reinstituting slavery, or denying people due process of law in criminal cases? We are assuming that enough people are behind this to make any vote turn out in favor of scrapping the Constitution. I am well aware that such a even is highly unlikely in real life. I’m interested in whether or not it would be possible from a legal perspective. ---
**Author:** ![dracoi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@dracoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dracoi)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-us-constitution-be-legally-abolished/624303/2 "2012-06-06T19:29:15Z")
There are no limits to what an amendment can change - the only limit is on getting enough votes to pull it off. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-us-constitution-be-legally-abolished/624303/3 "2012-06-06T19:29:21Z")
It’s not uncommon in other countries, or in states. That said, I have no idea if the U.S. Constitution provides any mechanism for “starting over”. [France’s current constitution](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_constitution) only dates from 1958, and replaced the post-war constitution which came into effect in 1946. The state of Illinois is on its [fourth constitution](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illinois_Constitution), which dates from 1970. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-us-constitution-be-legally-abolished/624303/4 "2012-06-06T19:34:19Z")
According to Article V of the Constitutions, the states can call a constitutional convention, which can amend the Constitution as a whole as it sees fit. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-us-constitution-be-legally-abolished/624303/5 "2012-06-06T19:34:40Z")
Article 5 of the Constitution: > [@](#): > > The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution, or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, which, in either Case, shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as Part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress; Provided that no Amendment which may be made prior to the Year One thousand eight hundred and eight shall in any Manner affect the first and fourth Clauses in the Ninth Section of the first Article; and that no State, without its Consent, shall be deprived of its equal Suffrage in the Senate. So all it takes is 2/3s of the State Legislatures to call a convention, if the subsequent document is ratified by 3/4ths of the states, the new constitution becomes law according to the old constitution, and the old constitution is effectively abolished. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-us-constitution-be-legally-abolished/624303/6 "2012-06-06T19:43:55Z")
The United States Constitution does contain a provision that could, perhaps, be used for “starting over” – It’s the provision for a Constitutional Convention for amending the Constitution. That, in fact, is how we got from our first “constitution” (the Articles of Confederation) to the one we have now. When that convention was convened in 1787, the advertised intention was simply to amend the Articles. What they did instead was amend it beyond recognition, starting over from scratch. We have never had another Constitutional Convention since, and if we ever do, there may be nothing to prevent a repeat of that scenario. As for **R\_C** ’s suggestion of an amendment annulling the entire Constitution heretofore, followed by more amendments creating new heretofore unthinkable rules, an obvious paradox arises: By first creating an amendment voiding the entire Constitution heretofore, you’ve eliminated (among all else) the very rules by which any further amendments could be created! Why bother? You could just as well (in fact, better) create all those additional amendments that **R\_C** suggests (_e.g._) _without_ first annulling everything else first. (ETA: Ninjaed, at least in part, by several recent posts immediately above.) ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-us-constitution-be-legally-abolished/624303/7 "2012-06-06T19:51:22Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > So it’s 2123 and Americans are finding it more and more difficult to reconcile the principles of the US Constitution with the bare realities of life when the zombie apocalypse is happening around them. Maybe depends on if the zombies are in the majority? If so, the rest of us might not want to risk what might happen if we go changing the Constitution then. 😛 Remember, by the way, that a fundamental principle of our governance rests on “consent of the governed” (well, in theory). Does our current Constitution grant any rights to zombies in the first place? If not, we might want to keep it that way. What would zombies consent to anyway? Are they even capable of consent? ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-us-constitution-be-legally-abolished/624303/8 "2012-06-06T20:09:41Z")
Isn’t that a bit zombie-ist? ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-us-constitution-be-legally-abolished/624303/9 "2012-06-06T21:00:31Z")
> [@Mk\_VII](#): > > Isn’t that a bit zombie-ist? Well, the problem is that it’s impossible to determine if someone is a zombie without searching them, and police are having a lot of difficulty with keeping the zombies at bay because you can’t search someone without a warrant upon showing of probable cause, and zombies don’t leave probable cause, so we want to make it so that arbitrary searches and seizures are legal. We also need to disband the Supreme Court because all of the Justices are now zombies. Also, due to budget cuts, we have nowhere to house our troops and so we want to quarter them in peoples homes. We also have a lot of people who opposed the anti-zombie movement that we consider to be societal rejects and we want to enslave them along with their zombie overlords. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-us-constitution-be-legally-abolished/624303/10 "2012-06-06T21:05:28Z")
It would be very difficult- not absolutely impossible but very difficult- to legally abolish the states, since by either process of amending the Constitution the states would have to agree to their own dissolution. ---
**Author:** ![Nunzio\_Tavulari](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Nunzio\_Tavulari](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nunzio_Tavulari)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-us-constitution-be-legally-abolished/624303/11 "2012-06-06T21:07:59Z")
And I for one welcome our new zombie overlords. I’d like to remind them that as a trusted TV personality, I can be helpful in rounding up others to toil in their underground sugar caves. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-us-constitution-be-legally-abolished/624303/12 "2012-06-06T21:08:28Z")
There is one further problem with using the amending clause to start over. Unless a new constitution provided for a senate with equal representation for each state (one of the worst flaws in the current constitution, IMHO) any new constitution would conflict with the amending clause. So you might have to start by amending the amending clause to allow a whole new constitution that didn’t have such a provision and then go the route of a constitutional convention. And maybe the horse will learn to sing. ---
**Author:** ![That\_Don\_Guy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/that_don_guy/32/538_2.png) [@That\_Don\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/That_Don_Guy)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-us-constitution-be-legally-abolished/624303/13 "2012-06-06T21:11:39Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > There is one further problem with using the amending clause to start over. Unless a new constitution provided for a senate with equal representation for each state (one of the worst flaws in the current constitution, IMHO) any new constitution would conflict with the amending clause. Except that the amending clause says that a state has the right to consent to have fewer (or more) Senators. For that matter, what would happen if there was no Senate? Technically, every state would have the same number of Senators - zero. ---
**Author:** ![AHarris](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bcef8e/32.png) [@AHarris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHarris)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-us-constitution-be-legally-abolished/624303/14 "2012-06-06T21:20:00Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > There is one further problem with using the amending clause to start over. Unless a new constitution provided for a senate with equal representation for each state (one of the worst flaws in the current constitution, IMHO) any new constitution would conflict with the amending clause. So you might have to start by amending the amending clause to allow a whole new constitution that didn’t have such a provision and then go the route of a constitutional convention. How so? The amendment or new constitution would not be effective until after all the criteria for ratification were met. So the senate would continue to exist until that happened. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-us-constitution-be-legally-abolished/624303/15 "2012-06-06T21:46:49Z")
I would be interesting to see how politicians would go about courting the zombie vote. ---
**Author:** ![Covered\_In\_Bees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7ab992/32.png) [@Covered\_In\_Bees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Covered_In_Bees)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-us-constitution-be-legally-abolished/624303/16 "2012-06-06T21:51:04Z")
Zombies don’t have any less thinking capability than the average voter, so it wouldn’t be much different, I imagine. EDIT: Instead of promising more jobs or lower taxes, just an increase in donated brains and voila, normal campaign. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-us-constitution-be-legally-abolished/624303/17 "2012-06-06T22:02:08Z")
I look forward to all the confusion that results a couple of years from now when this thread gets resurrected as a zombie thread, and people start making sly zombie comments which are indistinguishable from the heretofore straightforward zombie comments. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-us-constitution-be-legally-abolished/624303/18 "2012-06-06T22:11:06Z")
Zombies could be counted as three-fifths of a person for purposes of determining Congressional representation. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-us-constitution-be-legally-abolished/624303/19 "2012-06-06T22:11:40Z")
> [@KneadToKnow](#): > > … which are indistinguishable from the heretofore straightforward zombie comments. Insofar as zombie comments can be considered straightforward. ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2012, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-us-constitution-be-legally-abolished/624303/20 "2012-06-06T22:17:23Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > Insofar as zombie comments can be considered straightforward. Most zombies only go straight and forward. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-us-constitution-be-legally-abolished/624303.md?page=2)