# Could the US Navy enter the Black Sea? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 12, 2008, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-us-navy-enter-the-black-sea/459733 "2008-08-12T14:31:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2008, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-us-navy-enter-the-black-sea/459733/1 "2008-08-12T14:31:07Z")
Not that I’m recommending any such thing. But if the decision were to be made to send warships to confront the Sov-, er, Russian fleet blockading the Georgian coast, would there be any military or diplomatic hurdles vis-a-vis Turkey in passing throught the Dardanelles and Bosporus straits? Would we have to storm Gallipoli? Have any US warships ever entered the Black Sea? (Put this in GD because it’s bound to expand to a greater discussion of US military options.) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2008, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-us-navy-enter-the-black-sea/459733/2 "2008-08-12T14:47:49Z")
Well, Turkey’s a NATO member… how did they feel about Georgian admission? If they were very pro, sure I can see them letting U.S. ships through. If they were indifferent or slightly against, no way. It would certainly be dumb for the U.S. to force the issue - pissing off an established ally for the sake of a possible future one of lesser value. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2008, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-us-navy-enter-the-black-sea/459733/3 "2008-08-12T14:54:11Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] Well, Turkey’s a NATO member… how did they feel about Georgian admission? If they were very pro, sure I can see them letting U.S. ships through. If they were indifferent or slightly against, no way. It would certainly be dumb for the U.S. to force the issue - pissing off an established ally for the sake of a possible future one of lesser value. [/QUOTE] An American Fleet can do anything it wants, nothing can stop it. Whether it’s a good idea or not is another matter. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2008, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-us-navy-enter-the-black-sea/459733/4 "2008-08-12T15:11:25Z")
[QUOTE=tagos] An American Fleet can do anything it wants, nothing can stop it. Whether it’s a good idea or not is another matter. [/QUOTE] Actually, if the Turks really wanted to block off the Bosphorus, the entire U.S. Navy couldn’t stop them. All they would need to do is take one oil tanker, turn it sideways, and sink it. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2008, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-us-navy-enter-the-black-sea/459733/5 "2008-08-12T15:15:50Z")
[QUOTE=Alessan] Actually, if the Turks really wanted to block off the Bosphorus, the entire U.S. Navy couldn’t stop them. All they would need to do is take one oil tanker, turn it sideways, and sink it. [/QUOTE] And suffer the consequences. It’s not like the Americans pussy-foot around any more than the Russians when they consider their vital interests are at stake. Besides - I’m sure they have contingency plans and technologies for dealing with such an eventuality. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2008, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-us-navy-enter-the-black-sea/459733/6 "2008-08-12T15:20:09Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] It would certainly be dumb for the U.S. to force the issue - pissing off an established ally for the sake of a possible future one of lesser value. [/QUOTE] It’s not like we haven’t engaged in limited brinksmanship with this particular ally in the very recent past, either. The Kurdish issues at the Iraq/Turkey border are already sand in the gears. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2008, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-us-navy-enter-the-black-sea/459733/7 "2008-08-12T15:20:58Z")
[QUOTE=tagos] And suffer the consequences. [/QUOTE] That goes both ways, though. Would the U.S. really make a fellow NATO member “suffer the consequences”? The economic damage the U.S would suffer in return from the U.K., France, Germany, Canada etc. all pissed off to various degrees as the U.S. goes insane, is massive. How much is Georgia worth? As an alternative to direct military action, it’d be better for them to just quietly arm and support Georgia through the CIA. They’ve done that sort of thing before and I understand it all worked out perfectly. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2008, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-us-navy-enter-the-black-sea/459733/8 "2008-08-12T15:21:13Z")
[QUOTE=Alessan] All they would need to do is take one oil tanker, turn it sideways, and sink it. [/QUOTE] Nuclear torpedo. -Problem solved. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2008, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-us-navy-enter-the-black-sea/459733/9 "2008-08-12T15:27:09Z")
[Here’s](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=459060&highlight=navy+black) a relevant thread from a few months ago. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2008, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-us-navy-enter-the-black-sea/459733/10 "2008-08-12T15:29:54Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] How much is Georgia worth? As an alternative to direct military action, it’d be better for them to just quietly arm and support Georgia through the CIA. They’ve done that sort of thing before and I understand it all worked out perfectly. [/QUOTE] Quite. The forces used to attack South Os was the crack US trained and equipped division apparently. ‘Was’ being the operative word. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2008, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-us-navy-enter-the-black-sea/459733/11 "2008-08-12T15:30:19Z")
[QUOTE=Squink] Nuclear torpedo. -Problem solved. [/QUOTE] o/` It's a smoking crater not Istanbu-u-ul. A smoking crater not Istanbu-u-ul. It's a short time gone is Istanbu-u-ul. Why did Istanbul get the push? That's nobody's business but the Bush. o/` ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2008, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-us-navy-enter-the-black-sea/459733/12 "2008-08-12T15:39:08Z")
Wow some people really have an X-Box mentality when it comes to US power. The US cannot confront Russia in the black sea with a hostile Turkey. The notion is patently absurd. Georgia is worthless. We’re not going to do a damn thing, not a damn thing. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2008, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-us-navy-enter-the-black-sea/459733/13 "2008-08-12T15:43:34Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] Georgia is worthless. We’re not going to do a damn thing, not a damn thing. [/QUOTE] Well…looks like we want to send navy ships into the Black Sea for humanitarian efforts. I do not think the US Navy could do that without the good will of Russia and Turkey but as long as they are cool with it then no problem. > [@](#): > > U.S. officials also told CNN it was considering flying aid from bases in Germany to Georgia. There was also consideration being given to sending U.S. Navy ships into the Black Sea to conduct humanitarian relief missions. > > SOURCE: [CNN](http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/12/georgia.russia.war/index.html?iref=mpstoryview) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2008, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-us-navy-enter-the-black-sea/459733/14 "2008-08-12T15:45:01Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] Georgia is worthless. We’re not going to do a damn thing, not a damn thing. [/QUOTE] There’s a lot the U.S. _can_ do that doesn’t involve direct Naval intervention. Just giving the Georgians satellite intel would be significant. And, well, yes, if the U.S. was willing to use nuclear weapons, they could force their way into the Black Sea. And the Russians certainly could use nukes to force them back out again. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2008, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-us-navy-enter-the-black-sea/459733/15 "2008-08-12T15:49:57Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] There’s a lot the U.S. _can_ do that doesn’t involve direct Naval intervention. Just giving the Georgians satellite intel would be significant. And, well, yes, if the U.S. was willing to use nuclear weapons, they could force their way into the Black Sea. And the Russians certainly could use nukes to force them back out again. [/QUOTE] Georgia, at the start of this had 17,500 combat troops and 7 aircraft. It was like starting a chess game with a king and three pawns against a white full board. Even if black knew every move White planned to make the outcome wouldn’t change. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2008, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-us-navy-enter-the-black-sea/459733/16 "2008-08-12T16:18:23Z")
[QUOTE=tagos] Georgia, at the start of this had 17,500 combat troops and 7 aircraft. It was like starting a chess game with a king and three pawns against a white full board. Even if black knew every move White planned to make the outcome wouldn’t change. [/QUOTE] Yes, but the key lesson of mujaheddin Afghanistan (or Vietnam or even Iraq, for that matter), it’s that the best thing the small army can do is not to try to win, but just to drag the conflict out for as long as possible. Indirect U.S. support can help this, but direct military action just gets the Russians to fully commit and that’s a whole different game. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2008, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-us-navy-enter-the-black-sea/459733/17 "2008-08-12T16:23:54Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] Yes, but the key lesson of mujaheddin Afghanistan (or Vietnam or even Iraq, for that matter), it’s that the best thing the small army can do is not to try to win, but just to drag the conflict out for as long as possible. Indirect U.S. support can help this, but direct military action just gets the Russians to fully commit and that’s a whole different game. [/QUOTE] But that pre-supposes that you’ve already lost your country and are fighting a guerilla war. In SO they also have a hostile populance, not a friendly sea to swim in. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2008, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-us-navy-enter-the-black-sea/459733/18 "2008-08-12T16:40:00Z")
[QUOTE=tagos] In SO they also have a hostile populance, not a friendly sea to swim in. [/QUOTE] Having read further, I admit my mistake. The Russians _and_ Georgians should get the heck outta there. As a side note, this makes me curious about just how many ethnic enclaves exist in that part of the world who would declare independence if they could. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2008, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-us-navy-enter-the-black-sea/459733/19 "2008-08-12T16:44:49Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] Yes, but the key lesson of mujaheddin Afghanistan (or Vietnam or even Iraq, for that matter), it’s that the best thing the small army can do is not to try to win, but just to drag the conflict out for as long as possible. Indirect U.S. support can help this, but direct military action just gets the Russians to fully commit and that’s a whole different game. [/QUOTE] That would be fabulous for Russia. In fact I think they are hoping for it. A country too unstable for NATO membership would be just as good for them, and a pretext to send in more peacekeepers. The Mujahideen in Afghanistan are not quite as effective against the Russians who do not feel the same moral compunction against slaughtering their enemies that Americans do. Remember, this is the nation that pumped Fentanyl into a hostage situation in a crowded theater killing many of the hostages. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2008, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-us-navy-enter-the-black-sea/459733/20 "2008-08-12T17:55:45Z")
[QUOTE=tagos] And suffer the consequences. It’s not like the Americans pussy-foot around any more than the Russians when they consider their vital interests are at stake. Besides - I’m sure they have contingency plans and technologies for dealing with such an eventuality. [/QUOTE] There are so many things wrong with that statement. First, Turkey is a NATO ally, Georgia is not. Turkey is a major ally and invading their waters against their wishes would be political suicide. Beyond that, aircraft carriers are highly vulnerable to attack from modern diesel electric submarines. This was made worse by the retro-fit of the S3-Viking from a sub chaser to an ES-3 ELINT aircraft (note the [2006 incident](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-492804/The-uninvited-guest-Chinese-sub-pops-middle-U-S-Navy-exercise-leaving-military-chiefs-red-faced.html) with a Russian built Chinese sub). We cannot risk projecting naval power in the Black Sea. The days of the US cavalry are over. There is no political will left to be the world’s policeman. At best we can support Europe in a measured approach dealing with the situation and that would have to include the approval of Turkey for overflights and use as a staging base for supplies. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-us-navy-enter-the-black-sea/459733.md?page=2)