# Could the US Navy enter the Black Sea? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 12, 2008, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-us-navy-enter-the-black-sea/459733 "2008-08-12T14:31:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2008, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-us-navy-enter-the-black-sea/459733/21 "2008-08-12T18:14:45Z")
[QUOTE=tagos] An American Fleet can do anything it wants, nothing can stop it. Whether it’s a good idea or not is another matter. [/QUOTE] I’ve agreed with most of what you’ve written throughout this short conflict, however, in this particular case I think you’re far from reallity. You just don’t do “anything you want” to a country, [Russia, with which approximately 16,000 warheads, possesses the largest stockpile of nuclear warheads in the world](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armed_Forces_of_the_Russian_Federation#Nuclear_weapons). And specially not in their own backyard… Beyond MAD. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2008, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-us-navy-enter-the-black-sea/459733/22 "2008-08-12T18:27:31Z")
Oh and BTW, this is their newest bad-boy: [Russia has developed the new SS-27 Topol-M](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armed_Forces_of_the_Russian_Federation#Nuclear_weapons) missiles that are stated to be able to penetrate any missile defense, including the planned U.S. National Missile Defense. The missile can change course in both air and space to avoid countermeasures. It is designed to be launched from land-based, mobile TEL units and submarines [1]. Russian nuclear forces are confident that they can carry out a successful retaliation strike if attacked. Like I said, we’re not talking Iraq here… ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2008, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-us-navy-enter-the-black-sea/459733/23 "2008-08-12T18:30:54Z")
[QUOTE=RedFury] SS-27 **Topol** -M missiles [/quote] Yes, but can they sing “Tradition”? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2008, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-us-navy-enter-the-black-sea/459733/24 "2008-08-12T18:39:04Z")
[QUOTE=RedFury] Oh and BTW, this is their newest bad-boy: [Russia has developed the new SS-27 Topol-M](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armed_Forces_of_the_Russian_Federation#Nuclear_weapons) missiles that are stated to be able to penetrate any missile defense, including the planned U.S. National Missile Defense. The missile can change course in both air and space to avoid countermeasures. It is designed to be launched from land-based, mobile TEL units and submarines [1]. Russian nuclear forces are confident that they can carry out a successful retaliation strike if attacked. Like I said, we’re not talking Iraq here… [/QUOTE] and the [Va-11 Shkval torpedo](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VA-111_Shkval) that travels at 200 knots (230 mph). ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2008, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-us-navy-enter-the-black-sea/459733/25 "2008-08-12T18:40:22Z")
[QUOTE=RedFury] Oh and BTW, this is their newest bad-boy: [Russia has developed the new SS-27 Topol-M](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armed_Forces_of_the_Russian_Federation#Nuclear_weapons) missiles that are stated to be able to penetrate any missile defense, including the planned U.S. National Missile Defense. The missile can change course in both air and space to avoid countermeasures. It is designed to be launched from land-based, mobile TEL units and submarines [1]. Russian nuclear forces are confident that they can carry out a successful retaliation strike if attacked. Like I said, we’re not talking Iraq here… [/QUOTE] I haven’t beleived that for a moment. How the heck can one design a missile to counter a defense system that the capabilities are not known? I will believe the ABM-proof missile when I see it being tested, by a reliable 3rd party. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2008, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-us-navy-enter-the-black-sea/459733/26 "2008-08-12T18:45:28Z")
[QUOTE=jayjay] Yes, but can they sing “Tradition”? [/QUOTE] No, but ultimately they find their way to America. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2008, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-us-navy-enter-the-black-sea/459733/27 "2008-08-12T18:52:15Z")
[QUOTE=jayjay] Yes, but can they sing “Tradition”? [/QUOTE] No, but it whitens your teeth. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Slant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c57346/32.png) [@Mr.Slant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Slant)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2008, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-us-navy-enter-the-black-sea/459733/28 "2008-08-12T20:00:59Z")
[QUOTE=Tristan] I haven’t beleived that for a moment. How the heck can one design a missile to counter a defense system that the capabilities are not known? I will believe the ABM-proof missile when I see it being tested, by a reliable 3rd party. [/QUOTE] That’d be a hell of a Consumer Reports cover. Of course, after they were through, Motor Trend would test one, and complain it was too slow and handled like a '38 Farmall with the plow down… ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2008, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-us-navy-enter-the-black-sea/459733/29 "2008-08-12T20:18:45Z")
[QUOTE=tagos] An American Fleet can do anything it wants, nothing can stop it. Whether it’s a good idea or not is another matter. [/QUOTE] Yeah, Spain used to say the same thing about _Grande y Felicísima Armada_ until Howard and Drake handed the Spanish their asses at Calais and Gravelines. Hubris is a pedestal build on unstable ground, especially when it comes to floating cans that are vulnerable to any of a wide variety of ballistic missiles, supercruise missiles, stealthy attack craft, submarines, et cetera. [QUOTE=Tristan] I haven’t beleived that for a moment. How the heck can one design a missile to counter a defense system that the capabilities are not known? I will believe the ABM-proof missile when I see it being tested, by a reliable 3rd party. [/QUOTE] Decoy deployment buses, reflective balloons, chaff, maneuverable reentry vehicles, et cetera. We’ll never know the real-world effectiveness of ABM systems and countermeasures designed to defeat them until they are tested under adverse operational conditions. Anybody who wants to bet their ass–literally–on the alleged effectiveness of ABM versus countermeasures in a serious exchange, please raise your hand. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2008, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-us-navy-enter-the-black-sea/459733/30 "2008-08-12T20:22:30Z")
{deleted} ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2008, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-us-navy-enter-the-black-sea/459733/31 "2008-08-12T20:23:14Z")
[QUOTE=Tristan] I haven’t beleived that for a moment. How the heck can one design a missile to counter a defense system that the capabilities are not known? I will believe the ABM-proof missile when I see it being tested, by a reliable 3rd party. [/QUOTE] I’ll believe in a missile proof ABM when I see it being tested by a reliable 3rd party. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2008, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-us-navy-enter-the-black-sea/459733/32 "2008-08-12T20:24:17Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Slant] That’d be a hell of a Consumer Reports cover. Of course, after they were through, Motor Trend would test one, and complain it was too slow and handled like a '38 Farmall with the plow down… [/QUOTE] _PC Magazine_ would trumpet it as “the best missile ever!!” until the next issue when something else would be “the best missile ever!!” ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2008, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-us-navy-enter-the-black-sea/459733/33 "2008-08-12T20:37:45Z")
I’m glad so many of you are taking reality with such a dose of humor. For the fact stands that Nagasaki and Hiroshima where but babies on the scale of damage that nuclear weapons can inflict now a days. And look what it got them. Funnier still that many of you want to “test” these weapons against each other. Morbid yes, but funny. Guess it’s the typical human reaction when faced with impending doom. KABOOOOM! goes the world. What a laugh. In fact, the last one… ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2008, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-us-navy-enter-the-black-sea/459733/34 "2008-08-12T20:49:11Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] Wow some people really have an X-Box mentality when it comes to US power. The US cannot confront Russia in the black sea with a hostile Turkey. The notion is patently absurd. [/QUOTE] Well…it depends on how hostile the turkey is. My uncle has a great story about how he was out hunting as a young man with some…members of an Italian fraternal organization…and when a wild turkey jumped out from the brush, it sent the mob toughs running in the other direction screaming like girls before they finally turned around and shot it. If the turkey is really hostile, the Russians don’t have a chance. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2008, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-us-navy-enter-the-black-sea/459733/35 "2008-08-12T21:53:26Z")
[QUOTE=Argent Towers] If the turkey is really hostile, the Russians don’t have a chance. [/QUOTE] Well, if they’re [black Russians](http://www.cooks.com/rec/view/0,1718,145180-237200,00.html), they could make a turkey sandwich. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2008, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-us-navy-enter-the-black-sea/459733/36 "2008-08-12T21:55:32Z")
[QUOTE=RedFury] I’m glad so many of you are taking reality with such a dose of humor. For the fact stands that Nagasaki and Hiroshima where but babies on the scale of damage that nuclear weapons can inflict now a days. And look what it got them. Funnier still that many of you want to “test” these weapons against each other. Morbid yes, but funny. Guess it’s the typical human reaction when faced with impending doom. KABOOOOM! goes the world. What a laugh. In fact, the last one… [/QUOTE] You do realize that one can test the missile without inculding the payload, don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2008, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-us-navy-enter-the-black-sea/459733/37 "2008-08-12T21:59:28Z")
[QUOTE=Argent Towers] Well…it depends on how hostile the turkey is. My uncle has a great story about how he was out hunting as a young man with some…members of an Italian fraternal organization…and when a wild turkey jumped out from the brush, it sent the mob toughs running in the other direction screaming like girls before they finally turned around and shot it. If the turkey is really hostile, the Russians don’t have a chance. [/QUOTE] If it’s hostile to them yeah, but the idiotic suggestion was that we just blow through Turkey’s straits without consulting them. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2008, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-us-navy-enter-the-black-sea/459733/38 "2008-08-12T22:39:45Z")
[QUOTE=begbert2] You do realize that one can test the missile without inculding the payload, don’t you? [/QUOTE] ```auto INT. OVAL OFFICE -- NIGHT DOUBLE YOO sits at the desk with white and red phones, pouring over documents. He looks surreptitiously to SCREEN LEFT and then pulls an Archie comic out from his desk drawer. This is THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES. {The WASHINGTON-MOSCOW RED PHONE begins ringing.} DOUBLE YOO looks up in shock and frantically hides the comic under papers. He then looks around for someone. DOUBLE YOO Dick? Bob? Condi? Mike? Anyone? DOUBLE YOO gingerly picks up the phone and puts it to his ear. DOUBLE YOO Hello? A voice answers with a cheesy Russian accent obviously voiced by a veteran German stage actor. This is RUSSIAN PRESIDENT DMITRI MEDVEDEV. MEDVEDEV (O.S.) Hello? Hello? Izz zere anybozy zhere? DOUBLE YOO Uh, well, um, this is...I'm...the President of the United States? Are you selling something? MEDVEDEV (O.S.) Zelling zomezing? Nyet, I am calling...iz zee Vize Prezident zhere? DOUBLE YOO Um, I think Dick is our hunting morning doves that have been jammed into shipping containers. Can I take a message and have him call you back? MEDVEDEV (O.S.) Nein, nei...I mean, nyet, gospodin. I need to talk viz somezone in authority immediately. DOUBLE YOO Well, Dick did say that he didn't want to be disturbed, and that I should take care of things while he's out. Is this about the Georgia thing? I've been studying up on Georgia a lot, and Condi has been showing me a bunch of pictures an' stuff, but when I ask about going on a field trip to Savannah... MEDVEDEV (O.S.) Nein, not about zee Ghe-orgia. Zhis is about Zee Bomb! DOUBLE YOO Well, we're really sorry that the last Michael Bay film didn't do that well, but in the next one he's going to have Keifer Sutherland playing an ex-spy who... MEDVEDEV (O.S.) Vill you zhut up and litzen, Boosh? Zees eez important! DOUBLE YOO Sorry. I just get carried away...I really like Michael Bay. MEDVEDEV (O.S.) Vee just launched eye-zee-bee-eem at your country. DOUBLE YOO Hey, I used to have stock in them, too, but they made me sell it when all of their computers were made in China... MEDVEDEV (O.S.) No, you imbezile! Eye-zee-bee-eem! Meezzile! We launch meezzile at you country! DOUBLE YOO Well, gee willikers, what'd you go and do a thing like that for? MEDVEDEV (O.S.) Vell, my generals, zhey zay it good idea to tezt you zyztem. But zhen I get zinking, how do Amerikanski know zhat meezzile no haz no nuke. Zo I call you up to tell you, no nuke on meezzile, juzt tezt. No worriez, you zleep very vell. Goodnight! DOUBLE YOO Goodnight, Dmitri...wait, how to I know that there is no nuke on the missile? MEDVEDEV (O.S.) Becauze I zay zo! My vord, it eez goot, no? DOUBLE YOO Well, of course I trust you, Dmitri, but all my generals and admirals and stuff, they're going to ask me how I know. What do I tell them? MEDVEDEV (O.S.) You juzt tell zeem zhat all vell, uze aah-bee-eem zyztem to knock down. Zyztem vork, nyet? Zo it no probleem to zhoot down meezzile, no worry, zleep vell. Haz to go now, muzt look in vine zellar. Talk viz you latzer, Boosh. DOUBLE YOO Okay, goodnight, Dmitri. W hangs up phone, shakes head, and retrieves his comic from under the papers on the desk. Then the white phone rings. After eight rings, W answers. DOUBLE YOO Hello? Oh, yeah, I already know about it. Don't worry, Dmitri called and said it's unarmed, so you can just shoot it down? What do you mean it doesn't work? But, we paid tens of billions, it has to work! FADE TO BLACK ``` Stranger ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2008, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-us-navy-enter-the-black-sea/459733/39 "2008-08-12T22:59:10Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] If it’s hostile to them yeah, but the idiotic suggestion was that we just blow through Turkey’s straits without consulting them. [/QUOTE] Did you… _read_ that to which you replied? Oh, and :), **Stranger**. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2008, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-us-navy-enter-the-black-sea/459733/40 "2008-08-12T23:06:15Z")
[QUOTE=begbert2] Did you… _read_ that to which you replied? Oh, and :), **Stranger**. [/QUOTE] Did you? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-us-navy-enter-the-black-sea/459733.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-the-us-navy-enter-the-black-sea/459733.md?page=3)