# Could this be a better solution for our worst murderers? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 29, 2000, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-this-be-a-better-solution-for-our-worst-murderers/17586 "2000-02-29T19:02:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Sage](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Sage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2000, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-this-be-a-better-solution-for-our-worst-murderers/17586/1 "2000-03-01T06:46:00Z")
The US has a major problem with prison overcrowding. Contributing greatly to this situation are those who are in for life, with no chance of parole. Some folks are against the DP, even for those who commit the most heinous murders, particularly against babies, children and the elderly, and serious killers or mass murderers. Some feel the prison system constitutes inhumane treatment, even for the worst of the killers. There is a move afoot to get rid of the gymns, TVs, air conditoning, etc. However, many still have these things because it makes it easier on the prison guards if the inmates have something to do. These killers also get free medical and dental care, which most law-abiding people either pay heavily for don’t even have. We need the prison space for those who commit lesser crimes, who might be rehabilitable. Some states are forced to let even the most violent of criminals back out on the streets long before their sentence is up. I lived in Florida for 22 yrs and saw the news announcements a few times a year when large numbers of rapists, murderers and other violent criminals were being let out into our communities again. This was done to comply with mandatory sentencing laws and available prison space. \*\*Let’s try to debate this idea: I propose that those killers sentenced to life with no chance of parole be moved somewhere, maybe Alcatraz for starters. That they be supplied with seed, elementary tools, maybe livestock and a few changes of clothes. That instead of having our money spent on housing them in the prison, we instead spend the money on boats to encircle Alcatraz, helicopters, etc. This to insure against escapes. Let them learn to start a new society for themselves, like our ancestors did when they first landed on Plymouth Rock. Let them learn teamwork to get crops planted and harvested, manufacturing of things their society will need and so on. They will have a chance for a productive life, using skills they already have or learning skills they don’t have.\*\* In prison, they have no chance of a better life. Given land and elementary supplies and the opportunity maybe they can create something better. Eventually, when they learn to produce something worthwhile, they may even become a trading partner with the US. In prison, they are as caged animals. They take from society and contribute nothing in return. I think the plan outlined above is a more humane solution, giving them the opportunity to contribute to the making of a working society. Though this is a very brief description of the plan in my head, what your reaction? What can you add? Is this the seed of something workable? Sage ---
**Author:** ![Sage](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Sage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2000, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-this-be-a-better-solution-for-our-worst-murderers/17586/2 "2000-03-01T06:49:00Z")
:o Of course you all realize I meant “serial” (not serious) killers in the first paragraph, right? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Rysdad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7cd45c/32.png) [@Rysdad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysdad)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2000, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-this-be-a-better-solution-for-our-worst-murderers/17586/3 "2000-03-01T06:52:00Z")
I’ve thought along similar lines: Build a big wall around Nebraska and then dump the the criminals in. But, I think prisons also satisfy society’s urge to punish. Setting murderers free on an island doesn’t seem severe enough. Maybe the island could be in the Bering Straight? ---
**Author:** ![Sage](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Sage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2000, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-this-be-a-better-solution-for-our-worst-murderers/17586/4 "2000-02-29T19:02:00Z")
Nebraska??? Don’t know if that one would fly? 😃 (Well, maybe everywhere but Nebraska!) But yeah, it could be anywhere! Absolutely! Just used Alcatraz cuz it’s sitting there, **waiting!** 😃 And personally, I don’t care at all about punishment for these vilest criminals. No punishment will help us, help them, or help the families left behind. And rehab? Fuggedaoudit! And the only real justice would be if they could die as their victims died. But we won’t let such a horrible fate happen to them, will we? I think there is no room on this planet for them. But if we must keep them here, could the plan above solve most of the thorny issues? ---
**Author:** ![matt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@matt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2000, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-this-be-a-better-solution-for-our-worst-murderers/17586/5 "2000-02-29T19:12:00Z")
I first read this idea in “The Schrodinger’s Cat Trilogy” by Robert Anton Wilson. In an alternate universe they walled off a state (I forget which one), named it “Hell” and sent all violent criminals there. Many went of their own accord, since their were no laws in Hell. There are practical problems with it - it may be a tad tough to retrieve the falsely convicted, and you have to decide if you need one Hell for men and one for women. But it makes a great film if the President happens to crash his plane there… ---
**Author:** ![Spiritus\_Mundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c68b51/32.png) [@Spiritus\_Mundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiritus_Mundi)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2000, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-this-be-a-better-solution-for-our-worst-murderers/17586/6 "2000-02-29T19:19:00Z")
“Coventry” by Robert A Heinlein. Hey, it makes good fiction. * * * - The best lack all conviction The worst are full of passionate intensity. \* ---
**Author:** ![Crystalguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dbc845/32.png) [@Crystalguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crystalguy)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2000, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-this-be-a-better-solution-for-our-worst-murderers/17586/7 "2000-02-29T19:24:00Z")
You do know about Australia, right? ---
**Author:** ![Dirt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Dirt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dirt)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2000, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-this-be-a-better-solution-for-our-worst-murderers/17586/8 "2000-02-29T19:34:00Z")
What about Oz? From [Australia’s Cultural Network](http://www.acn.net.au/articles/1999/01/australia.htm): > [@](#): > > **Settlement** > Captain Arthur Phillip and the First Fleet landed at Port Jackson in the new colony of New South Wales on 26 January 1788. Until the American War of Independence, Britain had sent convicts to America. American independence ended the practice and the British prisons and prison hulks were full to overflowing. The island continent at the end of the world seemed a perfect place to send them. > > The First Fleet, comprising 11 ships and around 1,350 people, was dispatched to the unknown continent - the only information about New South Wales was that from Cook’s voyage of 1770. From these records it was decided the first settlement would be at Botany Bay, and a second settlement would be established at Norfolk Island to provide wood for ships and masts. > > However, on arrival at Botany Bay on 18 January 1788, Captain Phillip decided the site was not suitable and resolved to look for another. He decided upon Port Jackson, the site of modern day Sydney, and the people of the First Fleet established Australia’s first settlement on 26 January 1788. > > **The Settlers** > The First Fleet was frighteningly underprepared for the task which faced it. Little was known about the climate, animal or plant life of the land mass, and many of Cook’s encounters with the Aborigines had been hostile, at least in part. As Cook said in his diaries, the local natives wanted them gone. > > The Fleet consisted mainly of convicts with officers to guard them. There were many more men than women - around four men for every woman - and this caused problems in the settlement for many years. > > Few people in the Fleet had any experience of cultivating the land and this, combined with poor soil in the area, lead to the development of farms around Parramatta, but, more seriously, to near starvation in the first years of settlement. > > In spite of the problems, however, the settlement grew, and is now the site of Australia’s largest city - Sydney. Not quite an autonomous, anarchist prison state…but then again, with that kind of isolation (and what I assume was a disproportionate convict/guard ratio), it could have easily become _Escape From New York_-sville. And yet, look what a ragtag bunch of scrappy lowlifes can produce when they apply themselves. Paul Hogan. Barbified shrimp. The G’day-ification of the western world. On second thought, keep the dirty little bastards in jail. ---
**Author:** ![Dirt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Dirt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dirt)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2000, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-this-be-a-better-solution-for-our-worst-murderers/17586/9 "2000-02-29T19:35:00Z")
Wow, I was ten minutes late to a simulpost. ---
**Author:** ![C3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/c3/32/3108_2.png) [@C3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C3)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2000, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-this-be-a-better-solution-for-our-worst-murderers/17586/10 "2000-02-29T19:43:00Z")
Ha, ha, Crystalguy…I was going to say the same thing. “Been there, done that”, huh? Some problems with the idea: 1. Not very nice to the natives/people who already live there. In the case of Oz, just ask the Aboriginals how they feel about the idea. We’d have to find a deserted area. 2. This deserted area would have to be habitable. Could cause a problem with Amnesty International if it wasn’t. 3. Could cause a problem with AI, anyway. It could be construed as inhumane to dump a bunch of guys/girls who have only been exposed to an urban environment out in the wilderness with no skills and only a few tools. The chances of survival for all of these people is extremely small, especially since they’re all violent criminals. This wasn’t an issue in the 18th century, but probably wouldn’t fly in today’s social climate. 4. They might succeed, build a workable society, and then figure out how to get out! (see Australia…I’m ONLY kidding). This would be a problem if the 1st generation did this, but not necessarily the second, which brings us to… 5. What if they procreate? The kids are left to grow up on an island of the worst, most violent people. Didn’t they try a similar approach to a couple juvenile offenders in Alaska? IIRC, there was quite an outcry about the cruelty of the punishment. I think that if people oppose the death penalty as being cruel, they would have the same reaction to this. If anything, it’s worse because death, if it came, would come slowly. ---
**Author:** ![cleosia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9dc877/32.png) [@cleosia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cleosia)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2000, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-this-be-a-better-solution-for-our-worst-murderers/17586/11 "2000-02-29T19:47:00Z")
If I recall correctly, the people dumped in Australia were people guilty of crimes across the board. Thiefs, pickpockets, possibly debtors. In other words, some of them could have been people just trying to survive from day to day. What Sage is proposing is that we dump the worst of the worst onto an island to fend for themselves. That being the case, do we really want them to breed future generations of themselves? * * * Bitch by Birth ---
**Author:** ![cleosia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9dc877/32.png) [@cleosia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cleosia)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2000, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-this-be-a-better-solution-for-our-worst-murderers/17586/12 "2000-02-29T19:49:00Z")
My first simulpost! * * * Bitch by Birth ---
**Author:** ![Nu\_Vo\_Da\_Da](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/97f17d/32.png) [@Nu\_Vo\_Da\_Da](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nu_Vo_Da_Da)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2000, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-this-be-a-better-solution-for-our-worst-murderers/17586/13 "2000-02-29T19:57:00Z")
If the problem is overcrowding in prisons, why not just let those convicted of victimless crimes out, and also remove those crimes from the books. That would clear up a fair amount of space for people convicted of “real” crimes. While the Hell idea is interesting, I think there are too many problems currently for it to work. The only way I can see it working is if the region picked is A) uninhabited, and B) a region that isn’t really too hostile to human life. Care to name any of those? Also, as to the question of children, the convicts could simply be sterilized(I mean come on, if you’re going to just set them out in the middle of nowhere etc etc then whats the big deal with a vasectomy here or there?) ---
**Author:** ![justwannano](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ab992/32.png) [@justwannano](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/justwannano)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2000, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-this-be-a-better-solution-for-our-worst-murderers/17586/14 "2000-02-29T20:00:00Z")
The British used Penal colonies. Australia was one of them. I’m not enough of a history buff to know if they just backed up to the dock and dumped them off or not. I remember an old “outer Limits” tv show about a guy left on an obscure uninhabited planet for his punishment.Something about he fell in love with an “all parts strategically located” female robot. ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2000, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-this-be-a-better-solution-for-our-worst-murderers/17586/15 "2000-02-29T20:02:00Z")
I don’t know, man. What if you **did** wall off a certain part of the country and fill it up with ne’er-do-wells, and then the President of the United States was flying over it in Air Force One on his way to somewhere, and something went wrong with the plane, and the President had to be jettisoned and his Escape Pod landed right in the middle of the criminals? How would we get him out? Gee, I wish there was a movie about this or something, just to put my mind at rest. * * * Uke ---
**Author:** ![Sage](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Sage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2000, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-this-be-a-better-solution-for-our-worst-murderers/17586/16 "2000-02-29T20:15:00Z")
So see! It works in fiction & in real life! Sterilzation - Yeah, probably a good idea, but then how will the society grow? As far as habitable land, people do live virtually everywhere. Siberia, Alaska, the equator. Can be done. NuVo - good idea! What’s a victimless crime? ---
**Author:** ![Nu\_Vo\_Da\_Da](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/97f17d/32.png) [@Nu\_Vo\_Da\_Da](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nu_Vo_Da_Da)\ **Post date:** [February 29, 2000, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-this-be-a-better-solution-for-our-worst-murderers/17586/17 "2000-02-29T20:48:00Z")
A victimless crime? well, simply put it’s a crime that doesn’t have a victim attached to it. Now, theoretically this shouldn’t exist, but I would say that, for instance, possession of marijuana would be a pretty victimless crime. In fact as far as I’m concerned most drug offenses(dealing,(with the exception of pushers), possession, and use) are for all intents and purposes victimless. I would also argue that anything that only harms oneself is effectively victimless. ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2000, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-this-be-a-better-solution-for-our-worst-murderers/17586/18 "2000-03-01T22:37:00Z")
They’ve done that already. It’s called New Jersey. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Disputin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/58956e/32.png) [@Disputin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Disputin)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2000, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-this-be-a-better-solution-for-our-worst-murderers/17586/19 "2000-03-01T23:22:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Sterilzation - Yeah, probably a good idea, but then how will the society grow? ## Do you actually _want_ a society of murderers and rapists to grow?!? **Disputin** _Flagrantly ignorant statements cheerfully crammed right back down your neck._ ---
**Author:** ![Crystalguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dbc845/32.png) [@Crystalguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crystalguy)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2000, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-this-be-a-better-solution-for-our-worst-murderers/17586/20 "2000-03-02T23:57:00Z")
What I actually meant about Australia is that the attempt was made to isolate criminals. What actually happened was that the plan did not work. I could (and probably should) have said the same about Oglethorpe and the state of Georgia, to bring it closer to home. Point being that isolation of criminals hasn’t worked yet and I see no reason to assume that it ever will. I meant no offense to Australian, nor to Georgia. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-this-be-a-better-solution-for-our-worst-murderers/17586.md?page=2)