# Could this be considered a form of rape? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 23, 2001, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-this-be-considered-a-form-of-rape/89007 "2001-10-23T02:26:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![malkavia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malkavia/32/5621_2.png) [@malkavia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/malkavia)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2001, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-this-be-considered-a-form-of-rape/89007/41 "2001-10-23T17:49:20Z")
This strikes me as completely ridiculous. This girl decides that she’s gonna get it on with a radio DJ after ONE night of conversation at a bar and then she’s mad because she was lied to?!?! Okay… so does this woman normally just trust anyone about anything and feel that 3 hours into their courtship is a splendid time to have sex because “What could he possibly be hiding?” Granted, he was fleecing the sheep, and thats pretty far from cool… but I’m reminded of Chris Rock’s stand up… “You got extensions… your hair aint that long!! You wear makeup, your face don’t look like that!! You wear high heels, you aint that tall!! You wear a wonderbra, your tits aint that big! Everything ABOUT a woman is a lie!” If she has a problem being tricked into sex, perhaps she should look into getting to know someone a little better before sleeping with him. And while “Oh, he’s not really famous” is a pretty big blow for her, I’m sure “What do you mean I tested positive?!?!?!” would’ve been ALOT worse. Ah well… live and learn. ---
**Author:** ![Zoff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/6de8d8/32.png) [@Zoff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoff)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2001, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-this-be-considered-a-form-of-rape/89007/42 "2001-10-23T18:27:27Z")
> [@](#): > > We can argue over materiality (e.g. lying about your HIV status, versus lying about your grave dislike of poodles), but that discussion is better suited for Great Debates. … > I’m more than happy to let juries decide these questions; that’s what we have them for. And I’m not particularly worried about people getting prosecuted for rape unjustly; if you don’t lie to your sexual partners, you won’t have anything to worry about, eh? These two comments seem contradictory. Your first quote seems to acknowledge that there should be some threshold of materiality before it is considered rape, but then you later seem to want to throw everything to the jury. Do you really think the jury should even hear a case where a woman slept with a man because he told her she was the most beautiful woman in the world when he didn’t mean it? I’d hate to see the docket. I can’t imagine there are too many relationships in the world in which both parties have been absolutely 100% honest about everything. Since you don’t seem to care about thresholds of materiality, any of those lies seem to be potentially prosecutable. And I _am_ worried about people being charged with rape unjustly – or murder, or robbery, or arson, for that matter. I guess we’ll just have to disagree on that issue. I generally share your dislike of lying. But not all lies are, or should be, the basis for arrest and possible incarceration. Even in civil law not all lies are actionable. If I sell you a perfectly fine car and tell you I really enjoyed owning it even though I hated the car, the contract is still valid. If that type of lie can’t invalidate a contract, why should similar non-material lies put a person behind bars? ---
**Author:** ![lurkernomore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@lurkernomore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lurkernomore)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2001, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-this-be-considered-a-form-of-rape/89007/43 "2001-10-23T18:49:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by KellyM \* > **BlackKnight** : I believe that it should be criminal to lie to someone in order to get them to have sex with you. Under this standard, her lie about her age is sufficient to violate this standard and I think she should be considered to have committed a crime. As to statutory rape, it is a defense that the offender reasonably believed that the victim was “of age”. Since the “victim” is a minor, in most states she would not be guilty of any crime but could be adjudicated to be a “child in need of services” or a “juvenile delinquent” or some other similar term. ``` About 5 years ago, a Yankee (Polonia) was tried, convicted, and jailed for statutory for sleeping with a girl he picked up in the hotel bar on a weeknight at, IIRC, 2 AM. She was 16. He got 60 or 90 days. Think it was Milwaukee. His defense of "Why was she in the hotel bar?" got nowhere. ``` If a woman announces she wants only a rich husband, and marries one, is she a prostitute, then, as money was a motivating factor, maybe the primary one? ---
**Author:** ![Sweet\_Sota\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@Sweet\_Sota\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sweet_Sota_Girl)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2001, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-this-be-considered-a-form-of-rape/89007/44 "2001-10-23T19:10:54Z")
“This” is why this thread should have been started in the Great Debates forum instead of IMHO. I’m not yelling at the OP, just simply pointing out that a subject such as this was _bound_ to turn into a “great debate”. Ok, sorry for the hijack, just had to stick my two cents worth in. =) ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2001, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-this-be-considered-a-form-of-rape/89007/45 "2001-10-23T19:22:31Z")
I disagree that this should be punished by the courts. I don’t believe that the government needs to get involved at this level in our lives. So someone tricks a person into having sex. The state does not exisit to kiss our boo-boos. If an adult is out _choosing_ to have sex it is their responsibilty to choose appropriate partners in an appropriate fashion. **KellyM** there is a difference between using force and the victim struggling. If an attacker were to pull out a gun or knife and threaten and the victim submits without physical or verbal struggle there is still force and that is still rape. No the victim does not have to fight and scream ‘No’ for it to be rape but a misrepresentation does not make a rape. If she had reason to FEAR her attacker then we go to the area of rape. This person did not fear the man. She just did not know him. And let’s at least acknowlege that we only have one version of the story from a quy who is an admitted liar. He may have made up the whole thing just to be on the radio. We don’t have her side or an account from any witnesses. ---
**Author:** ![Atrael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Atrael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atrael)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2001, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-this-be-considered-a-form-of-rape/89007/46 "2001-10-23T20:18:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by KellyM \* > > However, I still find it odious to lie to someone just to get them in the sack, and I have no problem with criminally punishing people who do so (providing, of course, that clear proof of the lie can be had). If your prospective partner asks you if you’re a stockbroker, you believe that telling her truthfully that you’re a janitor will cause her to refuse to consent to sex with you, and you lie to her in order to obtain your consent, then I believe you have engaged in criminally culpable conduct > > (snip) > > And I’m not particularly worried about people getting prosecuted for rape unjustly; if you don’t lie to your sexual partners, you won’t have anything to worry about, eh? > > What I find perplexing, though, is the number of people who are defending the “right to lie”. Lying is wrong, plain and simple. If you lie and bad things happen to you, **tough shit**. Maybe you should practice the fine art of not answering questions you don’t want to answer, instead of lying. So just to make sure I understand you’re stance here, do you ever lie? Ever tell someone they look nice in an outfit, when it really makes them look bad? Ever deny that someone was getting fat when they asked? If you don’t agree that they are getting fat, and they later develope heart problems because of it, can they have you thrown in jail because you told a lie, and that lie caused their medical condition? Ever tell a child that “Yes, Virginia there really is a Santa Clause”? If you have a child, and tell them that there is a Santa Clause, can your child have you brought up on criminal charges later, on the grounds that you lied to them, and they have been physologically damaged by believing in a falshood. Can I have the leaders of the church brought up on charges because when I ask for proof of God, they can’t provide it? After all, they’re just **telling** me that if I live my life by the rules, that goodness and happiness shall follow the rest of my days. So if I’m a devout christion, but unhappy with my life, can I have my pastor thrown in jail? ---
**Author:** ![ENugent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/4af34b/32.png) [@ENugent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ENugent)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2001, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-this-be-considered-a-form-of-rape/89007/47 "2001-10-23T20:43:52Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by KellyM_ > And I’m not particularly worried about people getting prosecuted for rape unjustly; if you don’t lie to your sexual partners, you won’t have anything to worry about, eh? :rolleyes: And if you don’t do drugs, there’s no need to complain about mandatory drug testing, right? And refusing to submit to random searches of your home just proves you have something to hide. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2001, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-this-be-considered-a-form-of-rape/89007/48 "2001-10-23T20:55:43Z")
> [@](#): > > What I find perplexing, though, is the number of people who are defending the “right to lie”. Lying is wrong, plain and simple. Selling semi-automatic weapons is wrong, but I’ve got the right to do it. Having an abortion is wrong, but I’ve got a right to do it. Protesting against black people (as in KKK rallies) is wrong, but I’ve got a right to do it. So what if you think lying is “wrong?” I think so too, but I do it occasionally. I’m sure you do occasionally too, even if it’s just telling someone, “yeah, I’d love to come over and listen to you bitch about your day,” when you’d really rather not. Do I then say that you deserve whatever comes to you for your transgression? Of course not. > [@](#): > > And I’m not particularly worried about people getting prosecuted for rape unjustly; if you don’t lie to your sexual partners, you won’t have anything to worry about, eh? Fair enough, but everyone who lies is not a criminal. It’s nice to know you don’t care about unjust prosecution, hopefully you’re never on a jury if I ever am on the stand. I would hope that every member on that jury would be concerned about whether or not I actually am guilty or not. (sorry for the quasi-pit like comment there, it sounds a little harsher than I mean it, but it says what I mean). > [@](#): > > I still find it odious to lie to someone just to get them in the sack, and I have no problem with criminally punishing people who do so (providing, of course, that clear proof of the lie can be had). So all lies that lead to sex = rape? I know some people have asked this already, but no one answered: how “severe” a lie does it need to be to constitute rape? You are the most beautiful woman I’ve ever seen? I love you? Yes I am going to be in town for at least the next 2 weeks? My favorite color is chartruse? If you feel that lies like this are _not_ grounds for charging someone with rape then you need to re-evaluate how you’ve been presenting your case. If you _do_ feel these qualify as rape, then I would not be surprised if a very large amount of people both men and women have committed the serious criminal act of rape without being charged. In fact, such a large amount that you would never be able to bring laws that prosecuted such deplorable liars into effect. ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2001, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-this-be-considered-a-form-of-rape/89007/49 "2001-10-23T21:21:48Z")
If you want to debate this, take it to GD. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2001, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-this-be-considered-a-form-of-rape/89007/50 "2001-10-23T22:42:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bricker \* > \*\ ***KellyM** , I’m sure the voters of the Commonwealth appreciate your discerning judgement, and will take it into account as we elect our legislators this November. > > - Rick \*\* The backwards state of **Virginia!** You hillbilly Bricker! That’s the best chuckle I’ve had in a month. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2001, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-this-be-considered-a-form-of-rape/89007/51 "2001-10-23T23:00:26Z")
This is not rape. Rape is an act where the victim is denied the ability, through force, incapacitation or threat of force, to resist. Women have the capability to make thoughtful decisions. We are able to choose whether or not we would like to sleep with someone. We are able to judge their character. We are even capable of making decisions after a few volentary beers. Sometimes we choose poorly. As sentiant and capable human beings wwe must take responsibility for our choice- and not pretend that we don’t have control over our lives. Labeling every unfortunate sexual situation as rape undermines our standing as capable humans and dilutes the understanding of rape as a serious immoral criminal act. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2001, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-this-be-considered-a-form-of-rape/89007/52 "2001-10-23T23:10:55Z")
I have a quick question: If a man meets a woman at a bar and the two of them get blind stinking drunk and sleep together, can he be arrested for rape? ---
**Author:** ![panamajack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/47e85d/32.png) [@panamajack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panamajack)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2001, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-this-be-considered-a-form-of-rape/89007/53 "2001-10-23T23:12:21Z")
While the implications of this case are certainly subject for lively debate, I’d just like to mention that 90%, if not 99.9% of callers to radio shows who tell stories like this are actors. It’s usually a situation where the voice actor will improvise a character, or will be given a story to recite. In this case, it seems especially tasteless – of course, shock is often the intent, and taste is no boundary. What seems really odious is that the DJ could have set this up to make it seem like any woman would jump at the chance to sleep with him. I do not intend to imply that that was actually the case (what with all the talk of libel going around), just that it would be pretty awful if it was. Carry on, either here or in GD. ---
**Author:** ![panamajack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/47e85d/32.png) [@panamajack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panamajack)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2001, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-this-be-considered-a-form-of-rape/89007/54 "2001-10-23T23:16:32Z")
quick correction – My guardedness refers to the motivation of the DJ, not to the radio call-in. I stand by my assertion that the incident did not actually happen as described. ---
**Author:** ![Gaspode](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/aeb1de/32.png) [@Gaspode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaspode)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2001, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-this-be-considered-a-form-of-rape/89007/55 "2001-10-23T23:47:05Z")
Holy shit. I was raped multiple times 5 years ago and never realised it. ::eek: I met a girl through freinds of mine who had just broken up with her boyfriend. We went out regularly for two months and had sex. She then informed me she hadn’t actually broken up with her boyfreind, but had decided to have a fling while on holiday from university to see whether she should break up with him. I certainly wouldn’t have slept with her if I’d known she was cheating on her BF. Hell I wouldn’t have asked her out if I’d known that. She only claimed to be single so she could sleep with me, and I only slept with her because I believed she was single. Therefore I was every bit as raped as the woman described in the OP. I feel so violoated. :rolleyes: Come on peole, this sort of act is low. It’s nasty and it leaves a bad taste in the mouth of the victim, but it isn’t rape by any stretch of the word. ---
**Author:** ![Asylum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/53a042/32.png) [@Asylum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asylum)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2001, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-this-be-considered-a-form-of-rape/89007/56 "2001-10-23T23:55:46Z")
I do not have a degree in law and if I had known this was going to turn into a debate on the legal definition of rape I probably would have more carefully chosen my words. Although in retrospect I should have known that this thread was going to get legally specific. Also I think that this thread is dying down, so that is why I’m posting this here instead of in **GD** as **KellyM** suggested. **Bricker** when I referred to civil court I was thinking she might sue him for some sort of emotional distress, “I’ll never be able to trust a man again” sort of thing. I don’t think it’s likely she’ll win, but I think it’s a hell of a lot more probable than getting him on a rape charge. **KellyM** I reviewed the link you gave me and I still feel that nothing I said was false. I asked for proof that my understanding of the law was wrong and you gave your opinion. The best you came up with was the part of the Illinois Criminal code that states criminal sexual assault as **“[The accused] commits an act of sexual penetration and the accused knew that the victim was unable to understand the nature of the act or was unable to give knowing consent.”** You than stated that the woman was unable to give knowing consent because she was fraudulently misled. Numerous people pointed out the problems with using this interpretation to label the situation in the OP as rape. If you have a case or law that would apply specifically to the OP in support of your claim please give it. And nowhere did I say: **“it’s not rape unless the victim struggles.”** You inferred that on your own but I think **Zebra** did a good job of straightening this misunderstanding out. And as for the slander comment perhaps I was using the wrong word, but that doesn’t change the fact that you leveled an insult at me simply because you disagreed with me. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-this-be-considered-a-form-of-rape/89007/57 "2001-10-24T00:05:13Z")
That women I met at the bar **deceived** me by **misrepresenting** herself as more attractive that she actually is, by using cosmetics! She, Max Factor, Maybelline, and the maker of the Wonder-bra gang-raped me! Someone call Al Sharpton! ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-this-be-considered-a-form-of-rape/89007/58 "2001-10-24T00:45:26Z")
As previous posters have said, the consent is to the act of sex, not whether someone has a particular job or not. Here is a scenario for those who think it’s a serious crime: A DJ at a radio station leaves early one day. He goes to a bar and meets a woman. **As soon as he tells her he’s a DJ** , she agrees to go to bed with him.\* Unbeknownst to him, he’s just been fired for repeated slacking. The happy couple have sex. And this would be rape? - you might think she’s shallow - I couldn’t possibly comment ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-this-be-considered-a-form-of-rape/89007/59 "2001-10-24T01:14:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by even sven \* > > Labeling every unfortunate sexual situation as rape undermines our standing as capable humans and dilutes the understanding of rape as a serious immoral criminal act. \*\* I agree 100% Yeah, it sucks that he lied and she was so moral-less as to sleep with a guy she just meet, DJ or not, but if I was the victim of a serious crime I’d sure as hell be angry if some idiot like in the OP stole from the seriousness of what is usually a brutal crime. ---
**Author:** ![Shadowfox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c89c15/32.png) [@Shadowfox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shadowfox)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-this-be-considered-a-form-of-rape/89007/60 "2001-10-24T02:08:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Meatros \* > \*\*I have a quick question: If a man meets a woman at a bar and the two of them get blind stinking drunk and sleep together, can he be arrested for rape? \*\* If she was intoxicated to the point of unconsciousness and he wasn’t, then yes it could be considered rape because she was not capable of giving consent in that state. Whether the man could actually be convicted of this is another matter entirely. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-this-be-considered-a-form-of-rape/89007.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-this-be-considered-a-form-of-rape/89007.md?page=4)