# Could this happen in the U.S.? Prisoner escapes by helicopter **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 24, 2009, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-this-happen-in-the-u-s-prisoner-escapes-by-helicopter/487232 "2009-02-24T17:52:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-this-happen-in-the-u-s-prisoner-escapes-by-helicopter/487232/1 "2009-02-24T17:52:35Z")
Pretty interesting [story](http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090223/od_nm/us_greece_escape_odd_1), although a bit on the brief side. > [@Reuters](#): > > ATHENS (Reuters) – Greece’s most notorious prisoner escaped from an Athens jail on Sunday in a Hollywood-style helicopter getaway – for a second time. > > Vassilis Palaiokostas, 44, had escaped from the maximum security prison in 2006 in an operation involving helicopters and fast cars. > > He was arrested again last summer for allegedly organizing the kidnap of an industrialist and was awaiting trial. > > “Palaiokostas and his Albanian accomplice escaped from Korydallos prison by helicopter,” a police official who declined to be named told Reuters. If this stunt were attempted at your average prison yard in the U.S., how would they respond? Would the escapees be able to pull it off? I don’t know a lot about how air space and air traffic works, but I imagine they’d see the helicopter coming on radar, try to contact it by radio to see where the hell it’s going, and when it doesn’t respond… would most prisons have the capability to shoot it down? Would they be able to respond fast enough to chase it? Would it make a difference if it was a minimum/medium/max security prison? ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-this-happen-in-the-u-s-prisoner-escapes-by-helicopter/487232/2 "2009-02-24T17:56:14Z")
I have no idea why you think a prison would have aerial radars at their disposal. A helicopter can (if you’re a good shot) be shot down with lots of small arms fire, and if a prison has watchtowers they almost surely have dudes with rifles in them. But you need to have the helicopter pretty close to you for enough time to do enough damage to make it not fly. ---
**Author:** ![neutron\_star](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/51bf81/32.png) [@neutron\_star](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/neutron_star)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-this-happen-in-the-u-s-prisoner-escapes-by-helicopter/487232/3 "2009-02-24T18:05:48Z")
The prisoner would have to make his way from the prison yard or wherever he was coming from, to the waiting helicopter, and you’d better believe they’d be shooting at him then. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-this-happen-in-the-u-s-prisoner-escapes-by-helicopter/487232/4 "2009-02-24T18:07:47Z")
Many super-max prisons prisons have anti-helicopter wire over the top of their very limited exterior yards so that is probably right out. Disregarding that, it would be a bitch to orchestrate getting everything in place at just the right time to make that type of mistake. Helicopters are load and the the prisoner would have to break free at just the right time. ---
**Author:** ![3acresandatruck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/3/e79b87/32.png) [@3acresandatruck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/3acresandatruck)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-this-happen-in-the-u-s-prisoner-escapes-by-helicopter/487232/5 "2009-02-24T18:10:57Z")
Well, [there was an escape attempt at Marion IL](http://bulk.resource.org/courts.gov/c/F2/638/638.F2d.1016.79-1226.79-1225.html), near St. Louis, MO in 1978: > [@](#): > > This case arises out of an attempted prison escape at the United States Penitentiary at Marion, Illinois, in the early evening of May 24, 1978. A helicopter piloted by Alan Barklage landed near the front entrance to the prison at 6:15 p. m. that evening, with a mortally wounded passenger, Barbara Oswald. Barklage explained that Oswald had hired his helicopter ostensibly to look at real estate in eastern Missouri and southern Illinois but had forced him at gunpoint to take the helicopter to the prison at Marion to pick up three prisoners waiting at a specified location within the prison. According to the pilot, he had managed to take the gun away from Oswald and had shot her to death when she was reaching for other weapons. ---
**Author:** ![GreasyJack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/df705f/32.png) [@GreasyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreasyJack)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-this-happen-in-the-u-s-prisoner-escapes-by-helicopter/487232/6 "2009-02-24T18:12:51Z")
I don’t think the airspace over prisons is typically controlled, so on the air traffic control end of things, there’s probably nothing to stop you from gingerly hovering over your local penitentiary. I seriously doubt they’re going to shoot down your helicopter either, given the amount of collateral mayhem associated with a helicopter crash. However, they are probably very likely to shoot the escapee and I would suspect that a certain amount of corruption on the part of the guards was a factor in the story. ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-this-happen-in-the-u-s-prisoner-escapes-by-helicopter/487232/7 "2009-02-24T18:13:48Z")
Wiki lists three US attempts: > **[List of helicopter prison escapes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helicopter_prison_escapes)** > > There have been multiple prison escapes where an inmate escapes by means of a helicopter. One of the earliest instances was the escape of Joel David Kaplan, nicknamed "Man Fan", on August 19, 1971, from the Santa Martha Acatitla in Mexico. Kaplan was a New York businessman who not only escaped the prison but eventually got out of Mexico and went on to write a book about his experience, The 10-Second Jailbreak. > France has had more recorded helicopter prison escape attempts than any other coun... I remember one of them, which turns out to be the rather bizarre Ronald J. McIntosh case according to that list: > [@](#): > > Ronald J. McIntosh walked away from a minimum security prison on October 28 then stole a helicopter on November 5. He used the helicopter to free Samantha Lopez from the Federal Correctional Institution at Dublin, east of San Francisco. Both were later caught on November 15 when they arrived to pick up wedding rings from a California shopping mall. The authorities were monitoring the account McIntosh used to write the check for the rings and the police were waiting for them. > > Ron McIntosh for his role in the escape was sentenced to 25 years in prison. Samantha Lopez was given five years added to her 50-year sentence for a 1981 bank robbery in Georgia. As they were driven away to their separate prisons McIntosh was able to lean out of a car window and yell, I love you! to Lopez. [4] Ain’t love grand? ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-this-happen-in-the-u-s-prisoner-escapes-by-helicopter/487232/8 "2009-02-24T18:17:37Z")
The airspace around certain prisons in Ireland is designated “P” for prohibited, so it would not be legal to fly over them. However if you were flying low in a helicopter I don’t think you’d show up on Dublin or Shannon radar. Now that I think of it, there was a case where some republican prisoners escaped from Port Laoise by helicopter - can’t remember the details. ---
**Author:** ![Quintas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/48db29/32.png) [@Quintas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quintas)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-this-happen-in-the-u-s-prisoner-escapes-by-helicopter/487232/9 "2009-02-24T18:19:51Z")
Is it mostly ex-military that operate these surface to air missile batteries at the local penitentiary? Am I immediately shot down once i’ve been warned over the radio or will they scramble a few F-16s to check me out first? I guess the easiest thing to do is let the prisoner board the escape helicopter, then the warden can chase them down in his Apache attack copter. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-this-happen-in-the-u-s-prisoner-escapes-by-helicopter/487232/10 "2009-02-24T18:40:29Z")
One problem would be that if the helicopter had been hijacked (as in the Greek case cited), shooting down the helicopter would kill the innocent pilot. ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-this-happen-in-the-u-s-prisoner-escapes-by-helicopter/487232/11 "2009-02-24T18:55:22Z")
There was an old computer game where you tried to break out of a prison complex. After collecting and combining various objects, you assemble a helicopter. The one time I got the helicopter finished, I couldn’t find a place to land outside the prison walls. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![davekhps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@davekhps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davekhps)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-this-happen-in-the-u-s-prisoner-escapes-by-helicopter/487232/12 "2009-02-24T19:43:46Z")
The [U.S. federal “supermax” prison in Florence, Colorado](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADX_Florence) (home to the most notorious U.S. federal criminals-- Robert Hanssen, Ted Kaczynski, a bunch of Al Qaeda guys, etc.) uses anti-helicopter wire. [Link](http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/09/13/supermax.btsc/index.html). > [@](#): > > As I walk into the outdoor recreation area, it’s evident that virtually every possibility in combating the criminal mind has been considered. Large cables are strung above the basketball courts and track for no apparent reason. > > “Those are helicopter deterrents,” a corrections official explains. “We are not really worried about a chopper escape attempt, but you’ve got to be prepared.” ---
**Author:** ![Reply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/reply/32/15952_2.png) [@Reply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reply)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-this-happen-in-the-u-s-prisoner-escapes-by-helicopter/487232/13 "2009-02-24T20:02:39Z")
> [@davekhps](#): > > The [U.S. federal “supermax” prison in Florence, Colorado](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADX_Florence) (home to the most notorious U.S. federal criminals-- Robert Hanssen, Ted Kaczynski, a bunch of Al Qaeda guys, etc.) uses anti-helicopter wire. > > [Link](http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/09/13/supermax.btsc/index.html). Jesus. That’s fucked up. Solitary for 23 hours a day, no contact except for guards… how is that not cruel or unusual punishment? Makes the death penalty seem like a gift. On the other hand, why would you need a courtyard or any outside area at all if they exercise in their own “separate concrete chambers” anyway? ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-this-happen-in-the-u-s-prisoner-escapes-by-helicopter/487232/14 "2009-02-24T20:09:48Z")
> [@Reply](#): > > On the other hand, why would you need a courtyard or any outside area at all if they exercise in their own “separate concrete chambers” anyway? Not all prisoners at Florence are kept in their cells 23 hours a day. That’s only for the real jerks. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-this-happen-in-the-u-s-prisoner-escapes-by-helicopter/487232/15 "2009-02-24T20:30:30Z")
> [@Reply](#): > > Solitary for 23 hours a day, no contact except for guards… how is that not cruel or unusual punishment? Heh, I’ve spent 23 hours a day (or more) with no contact except a clerk if for some reason I had to go buy something for an extended period of time. I kinda preferred it. ---
**Author:** ![Pushkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ee59a6/32.png) [@Pushkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pushkin)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-this-happen-in-the-u-s-prisoner-escapes-by-helicopter/487232/16 "2009-02-24T20:47:40Z")
> [@hibernicus](#): > > Now that I think of it, there was a case where some republican prisoners escaped from Port Laoise by helicopter - can’t remember the details. I remembered something involving the IRA and a helicopter too when I saw the thread title, were you thinking of the [1973 Mountjoy Prison helicopter escape](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_Mountjoy_Prison_helicopter_escape)? ---
**Author:** ![RiverRunner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/977dab/32.png) [@RiverRunner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RiverRunner)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-this-happen-in-the-u-s-prisoner-escapes-by-helicopter/487232/17 "2009-02-24T20:57:22Z")
There was an escape from a South Carolina prison using a helicopter in 1985. I can’t find much about it at the moment, but you can look [here](http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9407E2DA123BF930A15751C1A963948260) for a follow-up not too long afterwards. RR ---
**Author:** ![Reply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/reply/32/15952_2.png) [@Reply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reply)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-this-happen-in-the-u-s-prisoner-escapes-by-helicopter/487232/18 "2009-02-24T21:10:43Z")
> [@Rigamarole](#): > > Heh, I’ve spent 23 hours a day (or more) with no contact except a clerk if for some reason I had to go buy something for an extended period of time. I kinda preferred it. It’s one thing when you’re a free person doing your own thing for 23 hours a day by choice. Being forcibly locked in a concrete 7’x12’ cell with no telecommunications and no view except the roof and part of the sky is, I think, something entirely different. Unless you’re an avid reader, I would think sheer boredom would drive you quite nuts. If you ARE talking about similar circumstances, maybe you’re just better at being alone? I know I didn’t like it much the few times I was kept in solitary. The first day was an absolute mindfuck, especially since I had no idea if I was ever going to get out again – like I’m sure many of those lifers now think. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-this-happen-in-the-u-s-prisoner-escapes-by-helicopter/487232/19 "2009-02-24T21:50:24Z")
[quote=“Reply, post:18, topic:487232”] It’s one thing when you’re a free person doing your own thing for 23 hours a day by choice. Being forcibly locked in a concrete 7’x12’ cell with no telecommunications and no view except the roof and part of the sky is, I think, something entirely different. Unless you’re an avid reader, I would think sheer boredom would drive you quite nuts. [QUOTE] You’re right- we’d better get Ted “Unabomber” Kaczinski and Richard “Show Bomber” Reid out of there, before they lose their minds. ---
**Author:** ![Reply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/reply/32/15952_2.png) [@Reply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reply)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-this-happen-in-the-u-s-prisoner-escapes-by-helicopter/487232/20 "2009-02-24T22:26:42Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > You’re right- we’d better get Ted “Unabomber” Kaczinski and Richard “Show Bomber” Reid out of there, before they lose their minds. Wow, way to distort my opinion. “Those conditions are horrific” does NOT equal “so let them go free!”. I’m not saying society would be better served by having them free and able to do as they please. If the point is purely segregation from society (so that the rest of us may be safe), I’m sure the ADX does that quite well. I just question whether it’s necessary to go to that extreme as a “punishment”. I suppose, when you’re in something like ADX, they’re not even going to pretend parole or rehabilitation is an eventual possibility. Short of a miraculous revelation in psychology/criminology, I suppose they’re basically SOL. If that’s the case, what’s the point of keeping these prisoners alive on taxpayer money? Just kill them already, as opposed to stripping them of all their dignity and whatever sliver of humanity they may have left and keeping them locked up like a rabid dog for the rest of their lives. Maybe it’s vengeance for the victims’ families, but beyond that… it just seems like pointless torture. Edit: But, I suppose, not all prisoners would choose that. If they prefer life in isolation over death… well, who am I to say otherwise? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-this-happen-in-the-u-s-prisoner-escapes-by-helicopter/487232.md?page=2)