# Could we ally with China against N. Korea? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 2, 2003, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-we-ally-with-china-against-n-korea/146202 "2003-01-02T14:16:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2003, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-we-ally-with-china-against-n-korea/146202/1 "2003-01-02T14:16:53Z")
Political hypothesis here: North Korea is basically a completely maniac state. They have gotten away with it by being so offensive, shrill, and basically jerks that their much more powerful opponents won’t bother with all the problems or denying them. Russia collectively hates the little \*\*\*\*\*, collectively, anyway. What about China? Could we ally with them against N. Korea? Not neccessarily in a military fashion, but as a political bloc? China stands to lose as much as the US from a wiold North Korea. If they were completely void of supprt, would the NK’s bow to presure and meekly go down the drain? Moreover, cuold we (the US) fashion a tacit deal with China about what to do? ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2003, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-we-ally-with-china-against-n-korea/146202/2 "2003-01-02T14:29:18Z")
Looks like they may be working their way up to it. > **[Breaking International News & Views](https://www.reuters.com/)** > [@](#): > > S.Korean, Chinese Officials Discuss N.Korea Nukes > Thu January 2, 2003 12:21 AM ET > > By Tamora Vidaillet > > BEIJING (Reuters) - South Korea and China discussed Thursday ways of defusing a showdown between North Korea and the United States over the drive by their impoverished communist neighbor to acquire nuclear weapons. > > South Korean Deputy Foreign Minister Lee Tae-shik met Chinese Vice Foreign Minister Wang Yi and was expected to urge China, North Korea’s chief ally, to put more pressure on the reclusive state to halt its weapons program. > > One diplomatic source said the meeting between Lee and Wang was expected to last two hours. > > Lee, taking part in a flurry of diplomacy aimed at warding off a crisis over North Korea, flew into Beijing Wednesday and pledged to work for a peaceful settlement. > > He said he planned “to exchange our views with Chinese officials on how to find a constructive way out of this nuclear stalemate.” > > China, which fought alongside the North during the 1950-53 Korean War, has so far balanced a call for a nuclear-free Korean peninsula with support for dialogue between the United States and North Korea to end the standoff. China can’t just dump North Korea, not after supporting them for so long, but they can work with South Korea, Uncle Sam’s Official Korean Ally[sup]R[/sup]. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2003, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-we-ally-with-china-against-n-korea/146202/3 "2003-01-02T17:07:58Z")
The funny thing is, there isn’t really a showdown. To wit: one wag called North Korea’s tactics something along the lines of playing chicken with a man who just threw their steering wheel out the window. ( don’t think we should appease them. They need to learn that we Americans have a lot of SUV’s and they are driving subcompacts. 😃 More seriously, though appeasing them every few years when they threaten to use or build nukes is just asking for trouble. ---
**Author:** ![Kagan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/50afbb/32.png) [@Kagan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kagan)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2003, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-we-ally-with-china-against-n-korea/146202/4 "2003-01-02T21:51:22Z")
There’s no way we could find an “ally” in China when trying to deal with N. Korea. The Chinese and the N. Koreans have similar geopolitical goals: ending US influence in Asia; regaining lost territory; reestablishing a multipolar world. The best we could hope for is for China to tell the N. Koreans to calm down while we gear up for war with Iraq. This may be in China’s best interest, because when we have committed enough troops, aircraft, and a substantial portion of our fleet to the Persian Gulf, then N. Korea can start defying the US again and open up a window of opportunity for China to manufacture an incident with Taiwan and impose its political will on the island. -Kagan ---
**Author:** ![d12](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/71c47a/32.png) [@d12](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/d12)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2003, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-we-ally-with-china-against-n-korea/146202/5 "2003-01-02T21:59:58Z")
No. Should such a scenario come into play, America would be turning their backs on Taiwan and becomming Allies with China. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2003, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-we-ally-with-china-against-n-korea/146202/6 "2003-01-02T23:41:56Z")
You don’t think that maybe everyone’s all Grown Up now, and we could be friends with both China and Taiwan? We certainly are Economic Partners with both of them–why not political partners, too? Like, maybe as the Old Men die off, the ones who personally went through The War, the younger generations on all sides wouldn’t care that much about abstract things like Chiang Kai-Shek, etc. It would be Ancient History, the way Vietnam is rapidly becoming Ancient History to teens who were born long after the whole thing was over (“young people nowadays…”) 😃 The whole China/Taiwan thing baffles me, frankly. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-we-ally-with-china-against-n-korea/146202/7 "2003-01-03T06:21:28Z")
China is driven more by real politik rather than leftover Maoist cold war isolationism. The domestic press has been very quiet vis-a-vis N. Korea. Reporting merely on what the US and S. Korea is doing. No editorials, just the facts. For some of you stuck in the cold war, China tacitly and implicitly supported the US in Afganistan. The first time I can remember when this was the case. China has a very long and unbroken history of denouncing any interference in the “internal affairs” of a country. I think it’s a ways away from the US and China fighting side by side, but Mao on a pogo stick they both worship money these days. As for the whole China/Taiwan thing, there is a huge amount of baggage. However, looks like the first chartered direct flights between Taiwan and China is 50+ years (discounting that rash of hijackings in the 1980’s) is going to take place later this month around Chinese New Year. But this is a whole 'nother thread. ---
**Author:** ![Kagan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/50afbb/32.png) [@Kagan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kagan)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-we-ally-with-china-against-n-korea/146202/8 "2003-01-03T07:45:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by China Guy \* > \*\*China is driven more by real politik rather than leftover Maoist cold war isolationism. The domestic press has been very quiet vis-a-vis N. Korea. Reporting merely on what the US and S. Korea is doing. No editorials, just the facts. > > For some of you stuck in the cold war, China tacitly and implicitly supported the US in Afganistan. The first time I can remember when this was the case. China has a very long and unbroken history of denouncing any interference in the “internal affairs” of a country. \*\* I’m not sure whether you’re aware of this or not, but China’s support for our campaign in Afghanistan hinged upon the US’s endorsement of China’s campaign against Uighur separatists in Xinjiang/E. Turkistan. Perhaps that wasn’t covered in Xinhua. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-we-ally-with-china-against-n-korea/146202/9 "2003-01-03T08:38:07Z")
Kagan, thanks to the internet, even those of us situated in China can get all the news we want. BTW, I read Xinhua pretty much only when it’s picked up by wire services like Bloomberg and Reuters. You’ll have to provide a cite for the US official _endorsement_ of a campaign against the Uighur separatists. Certainly a backroom deal was struck, but that is not the same as an official public endorsement. Regardless of the deal, it was the first time I can remember when China did not oppose the “interference in the internal affairs of a sovereign nation.” China, as you might be aware of, is quite sensitive on this topic vis-a-vis Tibet, Manchuria, Mongolia, Xinjiang and some other areas. Regardless, that supports my contention that Chinese international relations are governed largely by real politik these days. Certainly there is a lot of posturing, especially in the domestic press for domestic consumption, but that is marketing Chinese style. You’ve got to “separate the truth from facts.” Don’t forget, Beijing is within range of those same N. Korean nukes and they may not be too happy about that either. ---
**Author:** ![Kagan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/50afbb/32.png) [@Kagan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kagan)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-we-ally-with-china-against-n-korea/146202/10 "2003-01-03T09:16:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by China Guy \* > \*\*Kagan, thanks to the internet, even those of us situated in China can get all the news we want. BTW, I read Xinhua pretty much only when it’s picked up by wire services like Bloomberg and Reuters. \*\* Heh. Tell me about it. BTW, do you live in one of those “foreign guest” apartments where you get CNN, or are you truly going native? I’ve always wanted to do a spell in Shanghai, but their language is even harder for me to understand than Cantonese. > [@](#): > > \*\*You’ll have to provide a cite for the US official _endorsement_ of a campaign against the Uighur separatists. Certainly a backroom deal was struck, but that is not the same as an official public endorsement. Regardless of the deal, it was the first time I can remember when China did not oppose the “interference in the internal affairs of a sovereign nation.” China, as you might be aware of, is quite sensitive on this topic vis-a-vis Tibet, Manchuria, Mongolia, Xinjiang and some other areas. \*\* [http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A474-2002Sep11¬Found=true](http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A474-2002Sep11¬Found=true) Is that official enough? > [@](#): > > \*\*Regardless, that supports my contention that Chinese international relations are governed largely by real politik these days. Certainly there is a lot of posturing, especially in the domestic press for domestic consumption, but that is marketing Chinese style. You’ve got to “separate the truth from facts.” Don’t forget, Beijing is within range of those same N. Korean nukes and they may not be too happy about that either. \*\* Korea has traditionally been a Chinese protectorate for hundreds of years. I know the Chinese don’t love the Koreans (Gaoli bangzi), nor do the Koreans love the Chinese, but they’d be perfectly happy to gang up on the US if they could. Take care -Kagan ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 9:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-we-ally-with-china-against-n-korea/146202/11 "2003-01-03T09:24:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by China Guy \* > **Kagan, thanks to the internet, even those of us situated in China can get all the news we want.** It’s been reported that [the Chinese government limits access to certain Internet sites.](http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/16545.html) Are you able to get aorund that? (I’m just curious, sorry if this is straying away from the OP a bit.) ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2003, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-we-ally-with-china-against-n-korea/146202/12 "2003-01-03T09:28:48Z")
Hmmm, more official than I thought. Okay, not a back room deal but an open one. Certainly, there is horse trading going on over N. Korea right now. Yep, it’s been within the Chinese sphere of influence since the Yuan dynasty. Still, these days, dollars are more important to international relations than ideology as far as China is concerned. And this is true for both Korea and Taiwan. For example, N. Korean refugees are treated as economic migrants and shipped back over the border post haste. [hijack]No longer have “waixiao” and “neixiao” foreign/local apartment designations. IIRC those disappeared about 2 years ago. Basically, anyone can buy anything they want anywhere in China if they have the bucks. But ya, you could say I live in the foreign apartment with CNN and a host of other international channels. I did 3 years in the countryside in the 80’s, and 18 months in an “anjugongcheng” 6 floor walkup in the 90’s in Shanghai. I haven’t gone native, I just like being in Asia and most especially Shanghai. I find Shanghaiese easier than Cantonese to pick up as a Mandarin speaker, but then again my wife is Shanghaiese and not a Honky.[/hijack]