# Could we have a little golden rule session for Reagan and Clinton fans? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 13, 2004, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-we-have-a-little-golden-rule-session-for-reagan-and-clinton-fans/250137 "2004-06-13T17:01:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2004, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-we-have-a-little-golden-rule-session-for-reagan-and-clinton-fans/250137/21 "2004-06-16T05:05:09Z")
I have read that historians consider Truman to have been a great President, and yet his popularity was at 32% when he left office. It is difficult to know how someone will be judged. For one thing, information has a way of coming to the surface over a period of many years. I can’t imagine Ronald Reagan’s face on Mt. Rushmore when FDR’s face is not there. He was elected four times, brought this country out of the Great Depression and throught almost all of WWII. He was also loved by the people. I think that it is charm and personality that are unenduring and unremarkable in the end. That is not what makes a President great. Actually, I think Rushmore should be left as it is. Anything else would be too devisive. I have no objection to President Reagan on money. Especially if Grant is removed. He is historically seen as a very weak President. Sorry, I’ve wandered off. I didn’t care for Reagan as a President, but I was charmed by his personality all of my life. I avoided all coverage except for the funeral at the Catherdral and the sunset service which was extremely moving. I paid my respects because I thought they were due. I will do the same for all former Presidents. I don’t think I could do that for our current President, but I would not be disruptive or disrespectful during the period of mourning. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2004, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-we-have-a-little-golden-rule-session-for-reagan-and-clinton-fans/250137/22 "2004-06-16T06:56:41Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > Actually, I think Rushmore should be left as it is. Anything else would be too devisive. Actually, I think anything else would take the rest of the mountain down, and then NOBODY would be on Rushmore! Seriously, I don’t think that any president should be deified, just because he died. You can be respectful, and such, but I also think that the truth should not be ignored. (I remember when Nixon died, in my history class all we discussed was detente and China and everything, with nary a mention of Watergate). ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2004, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-we-have-a-little-golden-rule-session-for-reagan-and-clinton-fans/250137/23 "2004-06-16T10:36:39Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > I would hope so, but unfortunately I can’t expect so. Opposition to Reagan was based mainly on his policies, but few would claim to have disliked him personally. Policies’ effects fade over time or are superseded into irrelevance, though, while respect for a person remains. Opposition to Clinton was essentially entirely personal, and of an extremely venomous nature, not policy-based. The hatred we saw, and still see, of him simply transcends any connection to the world of policy or even reality, and hatred typically does not soften over time if it is nursed at all. While Clinton’s policies will be even more historically irrelevant to the far-distant day of his death than Reagan’s were at his, the remaining basic respect for the man that allows us to say nice things at almost any man’s funeral won’t be there in his case - because it never was there at all. > > I’d like to be proven wrong, of course - but it would help if we had less Clinton-bashing on this very board even this many years after his departure from the White House. I don’t know- you have a point. But GWB was able to put partisanship aside and say some nice things about Clinton for the unveiling of his portrait in the White House. Even if Clinton keeled over tomorrow, I’m betting the opposition will stow their partisanship and be perfectly civil for the mourning period. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2004, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-we-have-a-little-golden-rule-session-for-reagan-and-clinton-fans/250137/24 "2004-06-16T14:12:24Z")
Actually, I must say that I’ve seen/felt a marked decrease in bashing lately from the conservatives on the board directed towards liberal and/or Democratic politicians. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2004, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-we-have-a-little-golden-rule-session-for-reagan-and-clinton-fans/250137/25 "2004-06-16T14:16:04Z")
Understandably, given that both Congress and the White House are under their control - the more years that go by that way, the harder it is to blame the other guys, although they’re still trying. Wait 'til the Kerry Administration starts, though. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2004, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-we-have-a-little-golden-rule-session-for-reagan-and-clinton-fans/250137/26 "2004-06-16T14:39:29Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Understandably, given that both Congress and the White House are under their control - the more years that go by that way, the harder it is to blame the other guys, although they’re still trying. Wait 'til the Kerry Administration starts, though. 2009 is a long ways off. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2004, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-we-have-a-little-golden-rule-session-for-reagan-and-clinton-fans/250137/27 "2004-06-16T14:40:51Z")
I’m sure he meant the FIRST Kerry administration. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2004, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-we-have-a-little-golden-rule-session-for-reagan-and-clinton-fans/250137/28 "2004-06-16T19:08:19Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > Actually, I must say that I’ve seen/felt a marked decrease in bashing lately from the conservatives on the board directed towards liberal and/or Democratic politicians. You haven’t read stuff from **Brutus** or **Milum** lately, have you? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2004, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-we-have-a-little-golden-rule-session-for-reagan-and-clinton-fans/250137/29 "2004-06-16T19:18:46Z")
Well, if you wanna talk about the propensity of specific members to post off-color comments, we can take a look at who said they wanted to piss on Reagan’s grave. But I’m pretty sure AHunter3 is addressing the overall trend. What the hell, though. Let’s just toss in a bunch of ad hominens that help illustrate the point the OP is making. And one I tried to make with you with apparent little success very recently. And I note, once again, that the preponderance of the “fightin’ words” posts in this thread have been made by the liberal contingent. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2004, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-we-have-a-little-golden-rule-session-for-reagan-and-clinton-fans/250137/30 "2004-06-16T20:00:52Z")
> [@Brutus](#): > > 2009 is a long way off. What the hell? 2008 is going to be the great Jeb Bush - Hillary Clinton showdown. The RW yammerers wouldn’t just make that up, would they? > [@UncleBeer](#): > > And I note, once again, that the preponderance of the “fightin’ words” posts in this thread have been made by the liberal contingent. Examples? Or just pouting? > [@BobLibDem](#): > > But GWB was able to put partisanship aside and say some nice things about Clinton for the unveiling of his portrait in the White House. True, but it’s not like he had any real choice in the matter, not with the cameras rolling during an election year. Sincerity isn’t hard to fake for a veteran gladhander like Dubya, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2004, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-we-have-a-little-golden-rule-session-for-reagan-and-clinton-fans/250137/31 "2004-06-17T03:36:57Z")
Personally, I take issue with your assumption that they are equivalent in the ways that they are each less than exemplary men and presidents. They aren’t. Not everything comes down to a matter of opinion, through the lens of one’s own bias. Reagan’s administration was among the most criminal in history, if indictments are any guide. Clinton’s was pretty clean, apart from that whole blowjob bullshit. And given the microscope and kleig lights focused on him and his administration, and the whole lotta not much that was turned up anyway, I’d venture the opinion that Clinton’s presidency was among the most honest, forthright, and aboveboard in history. The value of each president’s policies is more open to debate, but on these matters alone, I think I have grounds to take issue with your unspoken assumptions, and I do. Having said that, I think every elected president (ahem) has and will deserve a certain amount of respect and honor upon their death, including Reagan and Clinton and Nixon and Bush I, etc. I don’t hold with lies and pretense, however. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2004, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-we-have-a-little-golden-rule-session-for-reagan-and-clinton-fans/250137/32 "2004-06-17T12:40:05Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > , I’d venture the opinion that Clinton’s presidency was among the most honest, forthright, and aboveboard in history. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! But seriously, folks, as regards the OP, there is a line that most recognize when someone dies. Comments like “the econony did well during his tenure, although there were several prominent scandals” are appropriate. “I am glad he died, I hope it was painful, and I hope some one digs up his corpse and sodomizes it” are clearly not. Most Dopers, both liberals and conservatives, realize that, and (for the most part) abide by it. Some dishonorable exceptions, but mostly from those who behave like assholes on a regular basis anyway. When Clinton goes to meet his Maker, I suspect the same rules will apply. As they did with Nixon, and for mostly the same reasons. It is the rare President about whom nothing good can be said. Even for a President who achieved something, but had his second administration more or less paralyzed by scandal and cover-up. But as **Guinastasia** says, no President should be deified. But I reserve the right to laugh until I lose bladder control if **Stoid** posts foolishness like the above, about Clinton or anyone else. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2004, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-we-have-a-little-golden-rule-session-for-reagan-and-clinton-fans/250137/33 "2004-06-17T13:43:04Z")
> [@Elvis](#): > > Examples? Or just pouting? Sure. > [@Evil Captor](#): > > As I consider it a near certainty that huge numbers of Republicans will rag endlessly on Clinton when he dies, I feel free to say whatever the hell I like about Reagan now. An unprovoked attack on the principles of “huge numbers of Republicans.” > [@Zagadka](#): > > For the record, I don’t think old Ronnie wished the world was still under MAD… I don’t think he thought much of anything for quite a while there. In a thread decrying personal partisan attacks, this is a shining example of just such. > [@rjung](#): > > . . . the only people who believe Clinton was a Satanic Destroyer of the Nation are folks who think Fox’s claims of being “Fair and Balanced” is a warranty. Demonization of conservatives; equating people who like Fox News with the lunatic fringe. > [@rjung](#): > > Of course, IMO those also tend to be the folks most eager to venerage St. Ron, which means we can expect them to really go nuts when Bill finally gets planted. Unfounded assumption. Display of prejudice and intolerance. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > The hatred we saw, and still see, of him simply transcends any connection to the world of policy or even reality . . . Implicit declaration that Clinton detractors are mentally unstable. > [@rjung](#): > > You haven’t read stuff from Brutus or Milum lately, have you? Ad hominem. And there’s a gratuituous shot from Stoid in there that came after I made the post to which you are objecting, so I can’t count that one. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-we-have-a-little-golden-rule-session-for-reagan-and-clinton-fans/250137/34 "2004-06-18T00:23:51Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > But I reserve the right to laugh until I lose bladder control if **Stoid** posts foolishness like the above, about Clinton or anyone else. I’m all ears and eyes, sho. Give me 5 examples of secret criminal deeds of Clinton and co. Quick. No blowjob stories or sexual innuendo. Yeah. Thought so. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-we-have-a-little-golden-rule-session-for-reagan-and-clinton-fans/250137/35 "2004-06-18T02:44:16Z")
NO, but the DOMA and welfare reform occured on his watch. Not exactly stellar moments for the left. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-we-have-a-little-golden-rule-session-for-reagan-and-clinton-fans/250137/36 "2004-06-18T06:50:28Z")
I’ve said it before, I don’t think most true-blue liberals were enamored of every one of Clinton’s policies. “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” was a limp-wristed half-step in integrating gays into the military, his support of NAFTA was a total pander to the fiscal conservatives, and the DOMA was an afformentioned train wreck. It would not surprise me one iota if you took all of Clinton’s policies, gave each one a 1-10 scale of left/right ideaology, and then averaged them out, you’d end up with something in the middle. Calling Clinton a “liberal” is as misleading as calling George W. Bush a micro-manager. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-we-have-a-little-golden-rule-session-for-reagan-and-clinton-fans/250137/37 "2004-06-18T13:58:46Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > I’m all ears and eyes, sho. Give me 5 examples of secret criminal deeds of Clinton and co. Quick. No blowjob stories or sexual innuendo. Secret ones? Not many - he got caught, after all. But if we exclude anything and everything connected with Clinton’s sexual harassment, alleged rape, and all the lying under oath, obstruction of justice, witness tampering, and assorted related sleaze connected with his various bimbo explosions, all we have left is Travelgate, Filegate, Nannygate, pardons for bribes, illegal campaign contributions, secret commission meetings, lying about the budget, lying about subpoenaed documents, and I am sure none of these count for reasons you haven’t made up yet. Is that more than five? Hard to keep track with Clinton. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-we-have-a-little-golden-rule-session-for-reagan-and-clinton-fans/250137/38 "2004-06-18T16:18:21Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > Calling Clinton a “liberal” is as misleading as calling George W. Bush a micro-manager. Well said. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-we-have-a-little-golden-rule-session-for-reagan-and-clinton-fans/250137/39 "2004-06-18T16:30:13Z")
You forgot Hillary’s closed, and thus probably illegal, meetings planning to federalize healthcare. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2004, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-we-have-a-little-golden-rule-session-for-reagan-and-clinton-fans/250137/40 "2004-06-18T17:14:31Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > But if we exclude anything and everything connected with Clinton’s sexual harassment, alleged rape, and all the lying under oath, obstruction of justice, witness tampering, and assorted related sleaze connected with his various bimbo explosions, all we have left is Travelgate, Filegate, Nannygate, pardons for bribes, illegal campaign contributions, secret commission meetings, lying about the budget, lying about subpoenaed documents, and I am sure none of these count for reasons you haven’t made up yet. > > Is that more than five? Hard to keep track with Clinton. Even if all of these were true and significant, Clinton is still a piker compared to Bush. Putting out no-bid contracts for your vice-president’s company? Now THAT’S crooked. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-we-have-a-little-golden-rule-session-for-reagan-and-clinton-fans/250137.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-we-have-a-little-golden-rule-session-for-reagan-and-clinton-fans/250137.md?page=3)