# Could women play on MLS soccer teams and compete? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [June 3, 2015, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-women-play-on-mls-soccer-teams-and-compete/721537 "2015-06-03T14:57:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Reluctant\_A](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/839c29/32.png) [@Reluctant\_A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reluctant_A)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2015, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-women-play-on-mls-soccer-teams-and-compete/721537/21 "2015-06-04T04:11:14Z")
I kind of feel like this is two different questions: Could a women’s _team_ play in a men’s league? Not a chance. Could _a_ woman play on a men’s team? Probably not, but I don’t think that the former is proof of the latter. Even if the Women’s National Team is getting routinely beaten by U-17 boys teams, that doesn’t conclusively prove that there isn’t a single woman on the team (or at all, anywhere) capable of playing with men, even though my _guess_ would be that there aren’t any. The only thing it really proves is that, however many there may or may not be, there aren’t enough to field a competitive team. If I have any kind of point at all, I guess it’s that I believe that, statistically speaking, odds are that there is at least one woman in the US who is a good enough athlete to play with the men. I’d guess that the odds are statistically insignificant, but probably greater than zero. The other reason I believe that is because I think that “play” is _just_ vague enough of a verb as to leave a little wiggle room in the answer to the question. Like, I don’t think that there’s a woman good enough to start on a men’s team, but (and I’ll admit that I don’t know soccer as well as I know basketball) I feel like there’s probably a specific game situation that occurs in real games that a good enough female athlete could be inserted into that she would not be a liability. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2015, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-women-play-on-mls-soccer-teams-and-compete/721537/22 "2015-06-04T05:04:55Z")
Abby Wambach might be able to play for a middling to poor college team, but that’s about it. I mean teams sometimes win after a red card leaves them down a player so if you really want to stretch the term play, yeah, sure, but then so could my grandmother. ---
**Author:** ![Asympotically\_fat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e47c2d/32.png) [@Asympotically\_fat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asympotically_fat)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2015, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-women-play-on-mls-soccer-teams-and-compete/721537/23 "2015-06-04T05:23:00Z")
> [@Reluctant\_A](#): > > I kind of feel like this is two different questions: > > Could a women’s _team_ play in a men’s league? Not a chance. > > Could _a_ woman play on a men’s team? Probably not, but I don’t think that the former is proof of the latter. Even if the Women’s National Team is getting routinely beaten by U-17 boys teams, that doesn’t conclusively prove that there isn’t a single woman on the team (or at all, anywhere) capable of playing with men, even though my guess would be that there aren’t any. The only thing it really proves is that, however many there may or may not be, there aren’t enough to field a competitive team. > > If I have any kind of point at all, I guess it’s that I believe that, statistically speaking, odds are that there is at least one woman in the US who is a good enough athlete to play with the men. I’d guess that the odds are statistically negligible, but probably greater than zero. The other reason I believe that is because I think that “play” is _just_ vague enough of a verb as to leave a little wiggle room in the answer to the question. Like, I don’t think that there’s a woman good enough to start on a men’s team, but (and I’ll admit that I don’t know soccer as well as I know basketball) I feel like there’s probably a specific game situation that occurs in real games that a good enough female athlete could be inserted into that she would not be a liability. I think your misunderstanding the magnitude of the gap here, if the best women’s players in the World are being not just beaten, but annihilated by a group of U-17s, most of whom won’t even develop into professional players, then that is about as indicative as you can get that there aren’t any women players who are good enough to play in the men’s pro game. On top of that it’s fairly obvious that none of the women players have the physical attributes that would be regarded as the bare minimum to play professional men’s soccer. Also the kind of tempo that even low-level men’s pro soccer is played at is just not seen in the women’s game. Soccer isn’t a game where players can be inserted into situations as it is free-flowing. If you can’t do everything your position need you to do it will become obvious very quickly and you’re not good enough to play in that position. GKs might be a little different though. Hope Solo (USWNT GK, regarded as one of the best women’s players of all-time) I don’t think could hold a candle to the best men’s goalkeepers, but it would be interesting to see her play in lower level, but tough professional men’s league like League One or League Two (English third and fourth tier). I’m not sure if she would be good enough to play professionally in a men’s league, but I don’t think it can be easily ruled out either. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2015, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-women-play-on-mls-soccer-teams-and-compete/721537/24 "2015-06-04T07:12:22Z")
> [@Asympotically\_fat](#): > > GKs might be a little different though. Hope Solo (USWNT GK, regarded as one of the best women’s players of all-time) I don’t think could hold a candle to the best men’s goalkeepers, but it would be interesting to see her play in lower level, but tough professional men’s league like League One or League Two (English third and fourth tier). I’m not sure if she would be good enough to play professionally in a men’s league, but I don’t think it can be easily ruled out either. I’d disagree. Watching women’s football I suggest that the goalkeeping is one of the more obvious positions where the level is very low. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2015, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-women-play-on-mls-soccer-teams-and-compete/721537/25 "2015-06-04T10:48:23Z")
When you get right down to it, it starts to look like physicality has little to do with it. As mentioned upthread, women can’t compete with men in chess, and for two more examples where the disparity is more than you might expect are billiards and darts. And by “more than you might expect” I mean “vast.” Maybe poker? Maybe not. A quick googling for top poker players turns up almost exclusively men. It may just be the nature of active competition itself. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2015, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-women-play-on-mls-soccer-teams-and-compete/721537/26 "2015-06-04T12:02:50Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > Maybe poker? Maybe not. A quick googling for top poker players turns up almost exclusively men. I give you[Victoria Coren Mitchell](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_Coren_Mitchell#Poker). > [@](#): > > In April 2014 she won the main event of the European Poker Tour (EPT) San Remo, earning €476,100 and becoming the only player to have won two EPT titles. Coren Mitchell has a number of other jobs, including writing newspaper columns and presenting the fiendishly difficult game show _Only Connect_, but she makes a tidy sum off her poker winnings. ---
**Author:** ![Your\_Great\_Darsh\_Face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ac8455/32.png) [@Your\_Great\_Darsh\_Face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Your_Great_Darsh_Face)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2015, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-women-play-on-mls-soccer-teams-and-compete/721537/27 "2015-06-04T14:54:29Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > I give you[Victoria Coren Mitchell](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_Coren_Mitchell#Poker). Coren Mitchell has a number of other jobs, including writing newspaper columns and presenting the fiendishly difficult game show _Only Connect_, but she makes a tidy sum off her poker winnings. Which doesn’t refute the claim that almost all of the top poker players are men. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2015, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-women-play-on-mls-soccer-teams-and-compete/721537/28 "2015-06-04T15:07:47Z")
> [@Your\_Great\_Darsh\_Face](#): > > Which doesn’t refute the claim that almost all of the top poker players are men. True, but it refutes the claim that “women can’t compete with men”. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2015, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-women-play-on-mls-soccer-teams-and-compete/721537/29 "2015-06-04T15:10:48Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Obviously meant “don’t understand”. The US team had (still has, but even more at the time) a big physical advantage over almost all women’s teams. Most teams they just ran past and jumped over, and the other team couldn’t even do anything to force them to have to play any other way. It was probably hard for them to schedule training where the other team even had the capacity to score against them, which isn’t ideal when you know you’re going to eventually run up against the other superpowers. You can’t just play three friendlies against Japan in order to get ready to play Japan. So you play some boy’s teams, who are stronger than you and faster than you, so you’re forced to play a different way and improve on the technical side. ---
**Author:** ![mcgato](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac8455/32.png) [@mcgato](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mcgato)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2015, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-women-play-on-mls-soccer-teams-and-compete/721537/30 "2015-06-04T15:43:02Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > So you play some boy’s teams, who are stronger than you and faster than you, so you’re forced to play a different way and improve on the technical side. Most, if not all, of the top US women’s college basketball teams have a group of college men that they practice against. These are usually guys who played high school basketball, but weren’t good enough to play college basketball. You have to practice against better people in order to get better yourself. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2015, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-women-play-on-mls-soccer-teams-and-compete/721537/31 "2015-06-04T15:50:46Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > True, but it refutes the claim that “women can’t compete with men”. Another claim that no one made. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2015, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-women-play-on-mls-soccer-teams-and-compete/721537/32 "2015-06-04T16:11:01Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > Another point here is that men seem to have a big advantage in competitive pursuits that have little or nothing to do with size, speed or strength. > > A classic example is chess, which plausibly involves none of these and at which women are thoroughly eclipsed by men. Judit Polgár achieved the title of Grandmaster at the age of 15 years and 4 months, at the time the youngest to have done so, breaking the record previously held by former World Champion Bobby Fischer. She reached a career peak world ranking of #8. Polgár has defeated eleven current or former world champions in either rapid or classical chess. Now it’s true that Judit is the only woman to have reached these heights i.e. men dominate chess at the top. This is probably because chess is not a sociable game (you play a single game against one other person for hours and must not distract them e.g. by talking.) Women do much better in bridge (partnership game; breaks every few minutes.) ---
**Author:** ![Asympotically\_fat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e47c2d/32.png) [@Asympotically\_fat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asympotically_fat)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2015, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-women-play-on-mls-soccer-teams-and-compete/721537/33 "2015-06-04T16:30:18Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I’d disagree. Watching women’s football I suggest that the goalkeeping is one of the more obvious positions where the level is very low. I have to admit I don’t watch enough women’s football to say with any certainty, so I’ll take your word on it. I think in theory goalkeeper is the position that women would be most able to compete with men. Though that said 6ft is generally seen as the bare minimum height for a professional goalkeeper, but there are the odd exceptions. Additionally most goalkeepers have significant upper-body strength. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2015, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-women-play-on-mls-soccer-teams-and-compete/721537/34 "2015-06-04T16:40:00Z")
> [@Asympotically\_fat](#): > > I have to admit I don’t watch enough women’s football to say with any certainty, so I’ll take your word on it. > > I think in theory goalkeeper is the position that women would be most able to compete with men. Though that said 6ft is generally seen as the bare minimum height for a professional goalkeeper, but there are the odd exceptions. Additionally most goalkeepers have significant upper-body strength. They’re going to give up probably over a foot in wingspan, significantly less vertical leap, and less lateral quickness. Keeper requires significant athletic ability! A playmaking midfielder in the mold of Pirlo would be the best shot. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2015, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-women-play-on-mls-soccer-teams-and-compete/721537/35 "2015-06-04T17:19:03Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > A playmaking midfielder in the mold of Pirlo would be the best shot. Interestingly I was discussing Pirlo with a colleague today and we remarked on his brilliant footballing brain and how he never relied on sheer speed or strength. However, another colleague informed us that he actually topped the stats in game mileage in many of Italy’s games. Perhaps stamina is more of a key to his than is first apparent. ---
**Author:** ![ssgenius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@ssgenius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ssgenius)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2015, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-women-play-on-mls-soccer-teams-and-compete/721537/36 "2015-06-04T19:40:00Z")
> [@glee](#): > > Judit Polgár achieved the title of Grandmaster at the age of 15 years and 4 months, at the time the youngest to have done so, breaking the record previously held by former World Champion Bobby Fischer. > She reached a career peak world ranking of #8. > > Polgár has defeated eleven current or former world champions in either rapid or classical chess. > > Now it’s true that Judit is the only woman to have reached these heights i.e. men dominate chess at the top. > This is probably because chess is not a sociable game (you play a single game against one other person for hours and must not distract them e.g. by talking.) > Women do much better in bridge (partnership game; breaks every few minutes.) Not only that, she has 2 sisters who are also top notch players. Guys playing Judith often commented how she was very aggressive and would capitalize on any mistake they made ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2015, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-women-play-on-mls-soccer-teams-and-compete/721537/37 "2015-06-04T22:29:40Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > True, but it refutes the claim that “women can’t compete with men”. Not really. All it does is support the idea (that I agree with) articulated upthread: > [@Reluctant\_A](#): > > Could a women’s _team_ play in a men’s league? Not a chance. > > Could _a_ woman play on a men’s team? Probably not, but I don’t think that the former is proof of the latter. Even if the Women’s National Team is getting routinely beaten by U-17 boys teams, that doesn’t conclusively prove that there isn’t a single woman on the team (or at all, anywhere) capable of playing with men, even though my _guess_ would be that there aren’t any. The only thing it really proves is that, however many there may or may not be, there aren’t enough to field a competitive team. _ **A** _ woman being able to compete with men doesn’t demonstrate that women can compete with men. I believe that _ **A** _ woman can compete with men in many things, like hockey or soccer or whatever, but that doesn’t mean I think women can compete with men in those fields. If they could, the women’s league should be disbanded and the women should simply be folded into the primary leagues. Much like how there’s no women’s poker league; it’s just a poker league. (Using the term “league” loosely here, as I don’t follow poker.) When we find n extreme outlier woman who can legitimately compete with men in soccer, to the extent that she would be a sought-after addition to a top tier men’s team based solely on merit (as opposed to publicity) I won’t view that as grounds for disbanding women’s soccer since “women can compete with men.” After she joins Manchester United (or whatever), it will still be correct to say that women can’t compete with men. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2015, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-women-play-on-mls-soccer-teams-and-compete/721537/38 "2015-06-04T22:41:53Z")
> [@glee](#): > > Judit Polgár achieved the title of Grandmaster at the age of 15 years and 4 months, at the time the youngest to have done so, breaking the record previously held by former World Champion Bobby Fischer. > She reached a career peak world ranking of #8. Yes - she is widely regarded as the most accomplished woman ever to have played the game, and by a considerable margin. The fact that she was solidly among the chess elite does not alter the fact that the gap between men and women at the top of the sport is enormous. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-women-play-on-mls-soccer-teams-and-compete/721537/39 "2015-06-05T08:40:13Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > Another claim that no one made. I was responding to this: > [@EllisDee](#): > > When you get right down to it, it starts to look like physicality has little to do with it. As mentioned upthread, \*\*women can’t compete with men \*\*in chess, and for two more examples where the disparity is more than you might expect are billiards and darts. And by “more than you might expect” I mean “vast.” > > **Maybe poker? Maybe not. A quick googling for top poker players turns up almost exclusively men.** Which **Ellis Dee** subsequently addressed more constructively. ---
**Author:** ![Your\_Great\_Darsh\_Face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ac8455/32.png) [@Your\_Great\_Darsh\_Face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Your_Great_Darsh_Face)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2015, 9:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-women-play-on-mls-soccer-teams-and-compete/721537/40 "2015-06-05T09:14:09Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > Yes - she is widely regarded as the most accomplished woman ever to have played the game, and by a considerable margin. > > The fact that she was solidly among the chess elite does not alter the fact that the gap between men and women at the top of the sport is enormous. Yes, on a quick look around it looks like you have one woman among the best ten (when Polgar was at her peak) and about one more among the best hundred. Which broadly parallels marathon running, as I understand it. > [@Ellis Dee](#): > > When we find n extreme outlier woman who can legitimately compete with men in soccer, to the extent that she would be a sought-after addition to a top tier men’s team based solely on merit (as opposed to publicity) I won’t view that as grounds for disbanding women’s soccer since “women can compete with men.” After she joins Manchester United (or whatever), it will still be correct to say that women can’t compete with men. And that’s a hell of a “when”, too. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-women-play-on-mls-soccer-teams-and-compete/721537.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/could-women-play-on-mls-soccer-teams-and-compete/721537.md?page=3)